


FOURTH SESSION / 




FOURTH SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	8, 9 AND 12 MAY 1997
								










 								
								

	VOLUME 3 / /1997







SPINE:	VOLUME 3 1997
















HANS\COV397

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - FOURTH SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 8 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I again wish to record the absence of our Speaker and as recorded yesterday, I still do continue to inform the House that the Speaker has made arrangements to be admitted into hospital.  We will update the House on progress.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and  Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Sir, the Premier will be joining us during the day.  So far there are no announcements as far as the Premier is concerned.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, I would like to table the annual report of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  Mr Speaker, I am tabling a report of the Department of Public Works.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  There being no further reports or papers for tabling.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I give notice of motion that I will move on the next sitting day that:

	NOTING the cold blooded gunning down of one of the four remaining councillors of Richmond at 1:00 am this morning. This House resolves to do everything in its power to normalise the area of Richmond.  This would include the immediate implementation of the recommendations of the Safety and Security Committee:

	That the Premier call a commission of enquiry.  The allegations of irregularities in the policing of the area to be referred to the independent complaints directorate;

	That the allegations of criminal activity including murder and hit squad activity be referred to the police for investigation;

	That the MEC for Safety and Security should monitor the progress of the above and insist upon immediate action.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Dr Sutcliffe.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I would have liked to request that this become a notice without motion, but I will make sure that it is circulated to the Whips and they could look at that.  I do not want to fall in violation of procedure.  It is a motion:

	That this House notes the brutal slaying of Councillor Rodney van der Byl of Richmond last night.


	RESOLVES

	1.	That the Speaker sends the condolences of the House to      the family; and

	2.	that we immediately call for the National Government to take all necessary steps to investigate this matter, and bring the killers to justice.

Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Since the motions seem to be both similar in content, not in all respects but to some extent, I would suggest that they both be provided to the Whips for formulation into one motion.  Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I will move the following motion at the next sitting of this House:

	This House pays its tribute to our people for their great contribution in self-help projects particularly in the fields of education and health services, when the white minority rulers were engaged in committing "crime against humanity" in neglecting the basic needs of the majority.

	It notes with pride the roles of:

	(a)	MOHOMED LAPPA SULTAN, a humble indentured labourer who gave his life's savings to race free education and who established the M L Sultan Technikon; and likewise

	(b)	RAHIM KHAN, M K Gandhi's partner in his legal practice, who gave his entire wealth for the neglected health needs of his people and established the R K Khan Hospital.  Our real and lasting tribute to M L Sultan, R K Khan and the many unnamed benefactors in self-help projects, is to continue to follow in their footsteps and make RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT a truly people-driven undertaking.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  I thought, Mr Rehman, you had wanted to say something.  That was not the case.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I have no notice of motion to give because I did not eat any dead sheep yesterday.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I was going to comment that you did not have a motion today and yesterday.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is a protest because this House does not believe in democracy.  They gagged me from moving more than one motion.  Today is the day of silent protest.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The notices being finalised.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I would like therefore to now, in line with the resolution taken yesterday, transform the House into the Committee stage for the deliberation on this vote and I accordingly request the Deputy Chair of Committees to take over the chair.  The House is transformed into Committee.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  MR T S MOHLOMI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR.

VOTE 4 - DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM

VOTE 15 - RDP

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The committee of supply resumes.  First on the list of speakers will be the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  I was informed that we will not only be dealing with vote 4 but also with vote 15.  The Speaker indicated that we would be dealing with vote 4.  I take it that both apply as from now?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, the Minister is going to cover both.  We will deal with both of them together.  I wish to now hand over to the hon Minister of Economic Affairs, Mr Zuma.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Chairman, hon members of the House.  As you might have heard, I am going to be dealing with two votes at the same time.  So I hope I am not going to send some of you to some nice feelings of the eyelids wanting to close, particularly because we will be dealing with very critical matters of the economy of our Province, which I believe some of our colleagues would certainly need to hear, who have not heard some of the things we have been talking about.

I would therefore take a bit of time and I would want to just assure the House that everything we will be saying is quite relevant to the Province and what the Province should look like.

It gives me great pleasure to present to you today the budget appropriation speech of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  As I have said, I will address both, vote 4 for Economic Affairs and Tourism and vote 15 for the RDP.

Over the last year we have made good progress in putting strategies in place and initiatives aimed at building our economy.  KwaZulu-Natal is certainly poised to benefit from the shifts in trade and industrial policy.  The general thrust of these shifts relate to:
	
-	A move from import substitution and self sufficiency to export promotion, international competitiveness and rapid employment creation.  

-	A move from demand site incentives to supply site measures.  
-	A move from sanctions and regional antagonistic relations to preferential trade deals and sustainable regional economic integration through the South African Development Committee; and 

-	A move from a small racial ownership base with large conglomerates to a greater ownership spread to the disadvantaged economic sectors.

These shifts in trade and industrial policy have major spatial implications.  KwaZulu-Natal is poised to benefit tremendously.  We will witness an increasing trend of investments and industrial location towards the coast and especially into this Province.
How do we maximise our investment potential through our comparative advantage we have as a Province?  

We have spent a lot of time in putting into place policy frameworks, strategies and initiatives to ensure that we are ready to catch a wave of global investments.  We cannot catch this wave as a Provincial Government alone.  We have therefore sought agreement with National Government, National parastatals and local government to co-ordinate our efforts and collaborate around specific and targeted areas.  

We have identified two corridors otherwise known as Spatial Development Initiatives, SDIs.  The first is the Southern Industrial SDI aimed at focusing on our industrial potential.  It includes Pietermaritzburg, Durban and Richards Bay.  In Durban we are going to concentrate on the Durban port, the Southern industrial basin including the Durban International Airport and ~Umbogintwini~.  In the port we are going to focus on unlocking key projects including a container terminal, a passenger terminal which will be good to boost our tourism sector, opening up the numerous tourism and commercial opportunities in the Victoria Embankment area and looking at the feasibility of an industrial development zone which would abut the port.  This zone will be governed by a special dispensation and offer the state of the art infrastructure, quick labour facilitation and mediation and minimum red tape in accessing duty drawbacks, rebates and other supply side measures.

A number of hard decisions also have to be taken.  Which of our ports are going to be the transhipment hub?  Durban, although the busiest port in Southern Africa, has clear space limitations.  Even if one considers constructing another port on the existing airport site this will not leave much space for further expansion.  This is an issue we must resolve.  A number of different options present themselves.  Decisions on this must also be taken more speedily.  Clearly, we need to view them in the context that they are not aims in themselves, but are instruments to stimulate further investments in industry that would generate long term jobs.  A key question we must resolve is what industrial sectors we want to support that can be globally competitive.  

A similar process is underway at Richards Bay with a focus on the port industrial investment.  In both Durban and Richards Bay Section 21 companies will be formed soon, which will include all the role players, the enablers and risk takers who will drive the process.

In Pietermaritzburg, we are focusing on the aluminium cluster.  The Hulett aluminium hot rolling sheet mill is currently producing 50 000 tons per year.  In 1999 this is expected to increase to 150 000 tons.  There is a number of opportunities for investment in aluminium products.  We will be looking at the feasibility of an Aluminium Cluster Park, that will be situated close to the raw materials and offers firms maximum competitive advantages.

The second initiative is the Lubombo SDI that includes St Lucia through to southern Mozambique including Swaziland.  The key focus is on our tourism and agricultural potential.  The tourism projects we are currently looking at are the greater St Lucia Wetland Park, Sodwana, Kosi Bay, Ponto do Ouro, which is on the Mozambiquan border, and the integration of the Tembe Ndumo, Futhi and Maputo Elephant Reserve as one transnational park.  We are also looking at tourism investment potential on the Jozini dam.  Once these projects have been packaged they will be concessioned to the private sector.

Mr Chairman, Government is going to build the road from Hluhluwe to Kosi Bay called Route S58.  This will cost approximately R180 million.  National Government has already put forward R55 million.  Tenders for the road construction will go out in two months time.  Provincial Government will have to find the outstanding amount.  I urge all Government departments to dig deep into their pockets and make the necessary contribution to make this road a reality.  It will certainly open up the investment opportunities and tourism and agriculture.

We are also focusing on the Makhathini flats for its agricultural potential.  We are going to encourage the growing of soft and tropical fruit, and vegetables for export markets.  The returns on these crops on export markets are far higher than current crops for sugar and cotton.

The Premier and I are the political champions of the SDIs in the Province.  The SDIs are going to be the biggest investment drive yet seen in the Province.  We expect that there will be full co-operation from all departments.  We have to move swiftly as Government and make speedy decisions to provide an enabling environment to facilitate private sector investment and confidence in our economy.  The quicker we are able to get decisions from Government departments the less time it will take to get projects packaged and ready for investor conferences.  The SDIs are certainly exciting initiatives and we will attempt to ensure that they make the Province clearly the prime industrial tourism and infrastructural investment destination.

I want to use this opportunity once and for all to clarify the role of my Ministry and Department in the process.  I have often come under criticism for slow progress.  This is largely due to the misunderstanding or lack of information as to who is responsible for co-ordination at different levels of Government.

When the RDP was adopted, a two-pronged strategy was adopted to change the way Government worked and how it reprioritises its activities.  The first mechanism was around the creation of RDP funds as a mechanism which was aimed at reprioritising activities of line departments, making line departments more accountable with regard to public money.

A milestone in this regard is the RDP White Paper dated 15 November 1994, which proposed 26 Presidential Lead Programmes (PLPs). These funds were accessed on the basis that each line department would apply for funds earmarked for specific programmes.  Two-thirds of PLPs were National programmes.  This meant that National line function departments, selected projects within programmes, developed business plans and selected various delivery agencies in provinces.  

This section therefore outlines some of the general progress made in the RDP and points to some of the key problems that still need to be addressed by Provincial Government.

The Provincial Cabinet established in November 1994 an institutional framework for the implementation of the RDP in the Province.  It established an RDP Cabinet Committee, an RDP Interdepartmental Co-ordinating Committee, an RDP technical committee and various task teams responsible for the implementation of the specific programmes.  As various programmes got off the ground they became integrated into each of line function departments.  

Some programmes have been implemented very much faster than others such as the clinic building and upgrading programme, the  ~Vulindlela~ water supply scheme, the Shemula Community Water Supply Scheme, the land reform pilot programme, the Bruntville/Mooi River reconstruction scheme, the Cato Manor project, urban renewal programme and the upgrading of municipal services.

Other programmes such as the Culture of Learning, the Community based Public works programme and the Project preparation facility are clearly struggling to get off the ground due to capacity problems within the line departments of Education and Culture, Public Works and the Director General's office.

The third category of projects that is certainly worth highlighting is the Siyakha programme undertaken jointly by the Sugar Association and the National Department of Public Works.  This programme is already almost fully implemented.  This must point to the efficiency and effectiveness of partnership with the private sector in the delivery process.  

Overall delivery of the RDP in the Province has been slow due to a number of factors such as limited capacity, bureaucratic procedures, lack of clear decision making by the key management within line departments and Government tender procedures.  There have also been problems with recipient communities.  Competing political and civic formations within communities complicate the establishment of representative committees and the task of project selection and implementation.

The objectives of co-ordination of the RDP relate to achieving integrated development objectives and budget reprioritisation.  At the RDP programme level this has been difficult to achieve in practice and very often line departments do not approve of what they perceive as interference with their line activities.  

Most line departments have viewed the RDP programmes as an extra bite of the cherry and proceeded to implement programmes without any process of reprioritising the budget.  It has been and still is a difficult challenge within Provincial Government.  The current line department culture characterised by narrow development practice is part of the difficult transformation challenges facing the new Government.  

The Provincial departments were allocated a few Presidential Lead Projects in implementation.  These were:

-	Discretionary Fund
-	The Community Based Public Works Programme
-	The Culture of Learning
-	Project Preparation Facilities.

These Provincial programmes were in turn decided at a National level to be allocated to specific line function departments and the Director General of the Province.  

This was the key fundamental source of confusion around the implementation of the RDP at Provincial level.  While my Department tried to facilitate the smooth implementation of these programmes, it was accused of meddling in the affairs of other departments.  Many community based organisation and NGOs have been coming to my Ministry and Department as if we held the funds.  

The Culture of Learning Fund has now been integrated into the Department of Education while the Community Based Public Works Programmes is with the Department of Public Works.  The Director General of the Province has managed the Discretionary Fund and PPF for 1994/95 and 95/96.

Due to unforeseen circumstances there has been a delay in establishing the RDP Directorate within my Department.  The
restructuring and amalgamation of the Department took place in September 1996.  This process led to the establishment of the RDP Directorate.  

The Discretionary Fund for 1996/97 and PPF have been facilitated by my Department.  When the RDP unit was established in my Department it had an important function of reviving the activities of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee, RDP task team and RDP Programme Managers.  With regard to the RDP Co-ordinating
Committee, there are five meetings that have been held since October 1996.  During these meetings the RDP Chief Directorate has achieved the following:

-	The business plan for the Discretionary Fund, 1996/97 financial year has been approved and this has laid down clear criteria for allocation, implementation and monitoring of projects.

-	That the business plan is the basis for accessing funds.

-	The Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism has been given a delegated authority to co-ordinate and manage the implementation of Discretionary Fund projects.

The Provincial Discretionary Funds amount to R14 million which my Department, through the RDP Co-ordinating Committee, is managing in the 1996/97 financial year.  It is through this funding that the Department is able to make an impact in an attempt to address the needs of the poor in the Province.
Among those mentioned in the business plan there are five key elements which are central in the allocation of funds.  These are:

-	Asset transfer
-	The promotion of livelihoods in the non-farming sector
-	Support for small scale farming
-	Support for SMME
-	Project based capacity building.

Funds allocated from the Discretionary Fund have been used to finance multi-purpose centre facilities such as Mtunzini/Pumula development project in Nongoma, Makhathini multi-purpose centre in Ingwavuma, to name a few.  The intention is to create assets within the community which are used to generate employment opportunities for local communities and be centres for skills development and capacity building for various projects within the community.

Other projects that have been funded from the discretionary funds have been targeted to women particularly in rural areas, which have been neglected in the past, who are seen as having the potential to enter the mainstream economy through SMMEs.  However, what we need to do is to consolidate and equip project beneficiaries with business management skills so that they are empowered.  

Efforts are underway to co-ordinate and manage the implementation of these discretionary fund projects as part of the Programme:  Addressing needs of the poor within the Provincial growth and development strategy.

RDP indeed introduced a new culture of business planning into Government.  While the idea of business planning was useful as a transformation tool it became yet another bureaucratic procedure within Government.  This did not facilitate speedy implementation of programmes.

Line departments, on the other hand, use the business plans to access funding without prioritising their activities.  Any attempt by the RDP office was in the main not well understood.  Despite this incoherence, I have done whatever I could to put in place what is required in the Province for the implementation of the Provincial programmes of the RDP.

This leads me to a second strategy of implementing the RDP which takes the RDP to a different level.  I realised a long time ago that the RDP fund strategy resulted in a leap from strategic vision to projects without proper policy development.  The second strategy is aimed at linking planning process with the budget.

I have always been clear about what co-ordination of the RDP should mean.  It means we have to ensure that we turn our Provincial budget and planning process around in each of the line departments to reflect the priorities of our people locked in poverty.  It means we have to develop appropriate partnerships with communities and other constituencies because Government alone does not have the resources to effectively address massive backlogs we have to meet.

Ultimately it means we have to align our activities within all line function departments and other stakeholders outside of Government around one strategic vision.

Over the last year I have initiated and piloted through a Provincial growth and development strategy.  The Provincial growth and development strategy provides the overall framework of how the Province will achieve its vision over the next 20 years.  The Provincial growth and development strategy clearly sets out the key priorities and framework through which hard decisions have to be made in future in the context of limited resources.

What has been important in this process has been the mobilisation of various sectors across the Province in support and development of a strategy.  It has clearly brought home a clear message that Government alone will not be able to deliver the socio-economic goods and services, and acquires a range of different partnerships at various levels in the Province.

We are now focusing our efforts on implementing the growth and development strategy that is clearly within our line functions and as set out below.  

What remains, however, for the full implementation of the strategy are clearly:

(a)	The development of the medium term expenditure framework that will set out projects, how Provincial Government will mobilise the R20 billion required to meet backlogs.  How much private sector funding can be leveraged.  How will we increase our Provincial capital budget.  What donor funding can be obtained.  What funds can be expected from the parastatal sector.  Finally, what funds can be borrowed without overburdening our Provincial fiscus.  The medium term expenditure framework should also set out key performance indicators for each line department against a clear set of attainable delivery targets.

(b)	The development of a medium term personnel framework that will assemble the necessary personnel from each of the line departments, and in the private sector, NGOs, parastatals and other sectors.  These teams will be responsible for implementing the various programmes of Provincial growth and development strategy.  We certainly need to combine our expertise as a Provincial effort if we want to achieve integrated development objectives set out in the RDP.

(c)	Finally, my Department has been tasked with providing a professional secretariat in the co-ordination, and management of the implementation of various programmes in the strategy.

We all know the major constraints that face us, massive unemployment, low human development index, still inefficient Government and uncompetitive economy among others.

We have no other choice other than to accept that alignment is critical to effect growth, employment and massive delivery.

The RDP describes a growth path that puts people at the centre, which sees people as our most important resource in development.  The stimulation of investment opportunities and SMMEs and Local Economic Development Strategy are clear examples of this growth path.  Currently my Department and partnership with the REF, Hope, NBI, CCS and IRI are working together on 15 identified Led pilot projects.  We are focusing on our resources pertaining to LEDs in these areas.

These are some issues that we are currently addressing with other Provincial Ministers and departments.  It is clear to me that unless we address these issues within Provincial Government we will certainly fail to implement PGDS systematically and effectively.  We need to set targets that are achievable.

Critical success factors are the following:

-	High level commitment to growth and development
-	Focus on Government agencies to implement programmes
-	Allow the public to monitor progress
-	Suggest report after three months to Cabinet Economic Committee
-	Decisive political leadership
-	Collective responsibility
-	Synergy between all the players

I am mindful of the fact that the implementation of the Growth and Development Strategy is not taking place in a vacuum.  It is in fact taking place within an environment that is dynamic and that has factors that could adversely effect the implementation of the strategy.  To counter the adverse effects of such factors it is important to have an enabling framework that sets in place environmental monitoring systems.  This enabling framework should entail a clear understanding of the following factors:

-	Socio political, organisational structures of implementing departments
-	Technical expertise of departments
-	Budgetary adjustments
-	Spatial structures of the PGDS
-	Sectoral functioning of departments as well as other social elements of the Province

Further, it is important to create an enabling framework to address the issue of communication.  We need to communicate about the implementation of the strategy not only within the Government, but also with the general populace and business sector of the Province.  To achieve the latter, we need to communicate through general media, high profile publications, recognised forums and information workshops.  As I have alluded to the above, I take the issue of building partnerships, as an important element in the implementation of the strategy.  The enabling framework will not be complete if my Department with its RDP co-ordinating mandate does not actively encourage co-ordination, not only between Provincial departments but also between Provincial departments and the National Government departments.

The enabling environment and its elements I have mentioned above will fit into the whole process of management of the Growth and Development Strategy Programmes.  Mr Chairman, hon members, I can assure you that as the RDP Chief Directorate of my Department completes appointments of personnel and have a full staff compliment, it will even be in a better position to effectively co-ordinate the implementation of the PGDS.

May I also use this opportunity to speak about the R100 million Peace Fund that appears on vote 15: Promoting the RDP.  The Peace Fund came as a result of a request that was made by the former Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose, and myself to the Minister without portfolio then, Mr Jay Naidoo.  In fact this is not the RDP fund, in a classical sense but rather funding which is meant to reward communities, which have achieved peace within their local areas.

The Premier, Dr Ben Ngubane, and myself are supposed to take decisions on the projects to be funded.  The Director General of the Province is administering the funds as an accounting officer.  I will soon be meeting the Premier of the Province with a document outlining a clear set of criteria which should govern the selection of areas that would qualify for such funds.  Once this is agreed to, a set of pilot projects can then be considered.  One of the key criteria for areas to qualify is that opposing political parties who had been fighting succeed to make peace and the fund is used to help reconstruct their destroyed properties as a contribution to the lasting peace and I hope there is clarity on this one, no confusion.  

People must not begin to say there is R100 million RDP, we want it here to do something else.  This is for a specific reason, to help us reach peace in this Province.

TRADE AND INDUSTRY POLICY

During the 1996/97 financial year the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism has recorded remarkable progress in promoting trade and industry, as well as tourism development.  These are activities listed as programme three in the budget.

The Department has been actively involved in the development of trade and industry policy, which forms a critical aspect of the Provincial Growth and Development Strategy.  As partners within the Trade and Industry Committee of the Regional Economic Forum, we are actively supporting an industrial restructuring programme focusing on improving the levels of international competitiveness and export performance of select industrial clusters.  These are sectors such as clothing and textiles, automobile components, timber and wood products, which are of great significance to the Province in terms of their contribution to employment and productivity growth rates.

The Department is engaged in close consultations with the port authorities with a view to developing strategies to enhance the economic role of the Durban and Richards Bay ports.  The plans for port development focus on overcoming the capacity constraints of the ports, improvement of technology, enhancement of the role of SMMEs.  Port development forms a crucial aspect of the spatial development initiatives in the Province.

The Department has also been working closely with Investment South Africa, ISA and the KwaZulu-Natal Marketing Initiatives, KMI, to promote inward investments in our Province.  The Department is participating in an investment-targeting programme co-ordinated by Investment South Africa aimed at building capacity within the provinces to target investments.  Special attention is being given to promoting joint ventures between our emerging enterprises with foreign investors.  Over the past year we have participated in a number of trade and investment missions abroad to market our Province.  These include Malaysia, the United Kingdom, Germany, France, India and China.  We have also received a number of foreign delegations including from Malaysia, Malawi, Thailand, Sweden and Singapore.

INTERNAL TRADE PROMOTION

Since the decision to develop functions in terms of the Liquor Act No 27 of 1989 to the nine provinces was taken, the Department has been participating in discussions at National level to finalise the process of devolution.  I have established a Provincial Liquor Board as a result.  The Provincial Liquor Board has done a sterling job and has only this year approved about 300 new licenses.  

The Board also approved about 260 applications for transfers.

Regarding the Businesses Act, which was devolved in March 1995 to the Province, the Department in close collaboration with the
Deregulation Committee has been working on the process of harmonising and consolidating the different pieces of business legislation in the Province.  A draft Bill will be presented soon to Cabinet for approval.

CONSUMER AFFAIRS

During the period under review the Consumer Affairs sub-division within the Department continued to provide consumer advice and education.  The consumer division has been networking with various stakeholders, including non-governmental organisations, trade unions, academic institutions and the media, to market its functions and to inform consumers on their rights and responsibilities as well as mechanisms and methods of seeking redress.

The sub-division has also been working closely with a specialised unit of the South African Police Services on measures to protect consumers from unfair business practices.  The consumer protection sub-division also hosted a meeting with representatives from large supermarkets and chain stores to address the special circumstances of disabled consumers.

The consumer protection subdivision is also facilitating the establishment of a forum of non-governmental consumer organisations that will serve as a link between the Department and the consumer public in the Province.  It is hoped that this network will play a major role in extending consumer education to all parts of the Province.  The formation of such a partnership is of great importance since the Department with its small staff component does not have the capacity to undertake this huge task on its own.  

The Department must, however, provide the strategic direction and vision for the forum to ensure uniformity of standards.

SMALL, MICRO AND MEDIUM SIZED ENTERPRISES DEVELOPMENT - SMME
DEVELOPMENT

The principal function of this division is to give strategic direction to Government support for this sector, co-ordinate and facilitate access of SMMEs to Government support programmes.

Development of local business centres (LBSCs) throughout the Province is one of the priority programmes of the SMME Desk.  These will play a critical role in providing support to emerging businesses.  There are already a number of local business service initiatives in KwaZulu-Natal.  In October the Department co-ordinated the establishment of the SMME Service Providers Forum whose aim is to facilitate networking amongst the LBSCs in the Province.  The Department is working on plans to develop LBSCs in all seven regions of the Province.  

The Department is also working closely with Ntsika Enterprise Promotions Agency, Local Business Service Centre Forum and the Provincial Tender Board on the establishment of the Tender Advice Centres throughout the Province.  These are intended to facilitate access of SMMEs to tenders as well as promote linkages between small and large business.

The Department is also participating in a pilot programme in close partnership with Ntsika Enterprises Promotions Agency, the Council for Scientific Industrial Research, (CSIR), and the National Productivity Institute, (NPI), for the establishment of regional manufacturing advice centres (MAC).  This programme is aimed to assist small and medium size enterprises to improve their capacity to compete on the world manufacturing export market.  Durban has been selected as the location for the pilot centre in KwaZulu-Natal.

ALSO IMPORTANT IS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A TRUST FUND FOR THE REHABILITATION OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVASTATED BY VIOLENCE IN KWAZULU-NATAL.

In November 1996, the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet resolved that this fund be established for the assistance of SMMEs devastated by violence.  An amount of R10 million will be allocated in the 1997/98 budget for this purpose.  A task team consisting of representatives from the Department of the Premier, Economic Affairs and Tourism, Finance and Local Government and Housing has been appointed to finalise the arrangements towards the establishment of the Fund.  The proposal for the Rehabilitation Fund has already been warmly received by the leading financial institutions in the Province.  I will be appointing a Board of Trustees after the necessary consultations with the relevant department and institutions outside the Government.  

The Fund is expected to be launched at the end of June this year.

THE KWAZULU-NATAL REGIONAL ECONOMIC FORUM

There has been good progress in restructuring the Regional Economic Forum into the KwaZulu-Natal Regional Economic Council.  Draft legislation has been handed to the State Law Advisor before submission to Cabinet after which it will be sent to the Economic Affairs and Tourism Portfolio Committee.  I hope members of the Portfolio Committee will rapidly resolve the issue so that we can formalise relationships between the key role-players in the Province.

Steady progress has been made with regard to development of environmental policy, establishment of a capacity building fund for development organisations and Local Government.

KWAZULU FINANCE AND INVESTMENT CORPORATION LIMITED, THE KFC

I now turn to consider the Provincial Government's share capital, allocation to our Provincial Development Corporation, the KwaZulu Finance and Investment Corporation Limited.  My comments will also touch on a number of pertinent issues that have been debated at previous sessions of this House by the hon members and the Portfolio Committees for Economic Affairs and Tourism and Finance respectively.

An amount of R66,8 million has been provided as share capital to the KFC in this financial year.  A large portion of this share capital, an amount of R38,8 million, will be used by the KFC as grant funding for training programmes of the KwaZulu-Natal Training Trusts, consultancy and support services to emerging entrepreneurs, and capacity building programmes to develop small black contractors.  The employment of share capital for grant funding purposes has had a negative impact on the KFC's return on investment.  I would like to assure the hon members that, as reflected in its 1997/98 budget, the KFC has made a significant move away from cross subsidisation and provides a clear distinction between share capital, development capital and grant funding.  Furthermore, in an endeavour to relieve the burden on the Provincial Government, the KFC decided to issue preference shares totalling some R66 million.  

The KFC Board has also implemented a limited structural re-organisation programme, conducted a review of the products and services it renders its clients, and adopted a single trading name, Ithala.  However, a major constraint affecting the operation of the KFC is the Ingonyama Trust Act.  This piece of legislation has, for example, prevented the KFC from selling off some of its realisable assets at its various industrial estates.  In spite of these problems, the KFC has managed to sell some 9,28% of industrial factory space on suspensive sales to purchasers, realising a total amount of R30,8 million.

In line with the new dispensation, the KFC has also embarked on a staff development programme based on affirmative action principles.  The corporation is committed to ensuring that its staff composition is more reflective of the demographic profile of the Province.  Presently 72% of all employees are black, and 24% of middle and senior management is black.  During 1995/96, 50% of appointments of middle management were black, while 85% of all new appointees to the KFC were black.  The Corporation has recently filled three senior management positions, Business Loans Executive, Finance Executive and Public Relations Executive
Designate, with black candidates.

Mr Speaker, in spite of these achievements, there is still a lot of unhappiness about a number of questions regarding the KFC.  As you know, we initiated a process of transformation of the KFC.  This process is closely linked to the ongoing review of the whole development finance system at the National level.  Although we still do not have a final position from the Central Government we have taken bold steps in charting the process for its re-structuring of the KFC and the creation of a new Provincial Development Finance Corporation, PDFC.

Cabinet recently appointed a five person PDFC Steering Committee, consisting of myself as Chairperson, the Minister of Finance as Deputy Chairperson, the chairpersons of Economic Affairs and Tourism and Finance Portfolio Committees, respectively, and a representative of the KFC Board.  The PDFC Steering Committee has been charged with the task of preparing draft legislation, setting out a mandate, governance, funding reporting structures for a new PDFC.  A Professional Resource Team has been established to provide technical and managerial support as well as expertise required by the PDFC Steering Committee to execute its terms of reference.  In terms of the Cabinet Resolution, this process of transformation must be finalised by 30 June 1997.  I would like to assure the House that we are confident that this process is firmly on course.

KWAZULU TRANSPORT SERVICES CORPORATION LIMITED

I would like to turn to the question of the KwaZulu Transport Services Corporation Limited.  You will recall that the KZTSC was established in terms of the KwaZulu Co-Operations Act, 1994 in the same way as the KFC.  This Corporation has been experiencing serious problems and Cabinet passed a number of resolutions to help restore its viability.  The consultants, Gasa and Associates and Sizwe and Co, were appointed to oversee the transformation of the Corporation.  

The plan for restructuring of KwaZulu Transport included reconstitution of the Board of Directors, immediate closure of unprofitable routes, rationalisation of assets, retrenchment and pay out of some 540 employees.  It should be noted that the retrenchment exercise was conducted with the active participation of all affected stakeholders including unions, non-unionised staff and management.  I am quite happy with the result achieved.

Although of course the House must know that I am already receiving delegations from different areas saying the buses have disappeared and people are not been transported.  You must know there is a problem as we forecasted, that when we deal with it there would be side effects.

Recently I received a big delegation of ~Amakhosi~ from the Ndwedwe area on the same issue, saying school children, teachers and workers cannot do their normal business because the buses have disappeared.  I think this Legislature should be aware of those kind of complications.

TOURISM

Two distinct areas of activity have distinguished the year under review by the Tourism Division of the Department.  The first was the Community Based Tourism Programme and the second was the process of creating a Tourism Authority in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Dealing first with the Community Based Tourism Programme, it is pertinent to remember that this started in 1992.  The majority of projects have been associated with Government protected conservation areas in Maputaland.  These fell under the authority of three Government conservation agencies, namely the Department of Nature Conservation, Natal Parks Board and the Provincial Administration, all lacking a common tourism development policy and programme.  The fragmented nature of the institutional base has prevented a co-ordinated approach to tourism development in the Province.  A further contributor to delay in implementing tourism initiatives has been the Ingonyama Land Trust Act, which impacted on the issuance of Permission to Occupy authorisations.

During the year, the Department's staff has been involved in 88 separate community based tourism development projects, promoting tourism awareness in Maputaland, the Drakensberg area and in the South Coast.  This programme has been designed to assist communities to develop tourism opportunities within their local areas into viable businesses.  The programme offers assistance to communities in the following way:

-	Identification of tourism opportunities
-	Creating awareness among host communities and gaining their support
-	Capacity building
-	Creating a profitable business venture

The Community Based Tourism Programme is providing ongoing assistance to the following areas.  ~Izingolweni~, ~Kwalembe~ Tribe, ~Izotshwa~ Station project, ~Bambata~ Battle Field project, ~Gcwensa~ Tribe, the Zulu Royal House in ~Nongoma~, ~Mangcolosi~ (~Shuhu~ Hot Springs) Tribal Authority, ~Lilani~ Hot Springs, ~Mthembu~/~Sithole~ Tribal Authority, ~Cengeni~ Gate, ~Umfolozi~, ~Thandanani~ ~Mazizi~ Development Association, ~Amangwane~ community, Bergville, ~Ubuhlebomzinyathi~ Development Community, Newcastle and the Dawson's Rocks Tribal Authority.  All these projects are in various stages of development.  There has been a clear increase in demand by rural communities in particular for services provided by this programme.  I am hoping that over the next two years we will increase our resource allocation to this programme.

In parallel with the activities identified above, the Tourism Division was specifically mandated to facilitate the establishment of a Tourism Authority for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  This involved setting up a Section 21 Company, "Tourism KwaZulu-Natal", to take over the assets and liabilities and staff of the SATOUR Regional Office in Durban, the formation of an Interim Provincial Tourism Authority, and to make recommendations in respect of its strategies and modus operandi, the preparation of appropriate legislation, the guidance of the process through Parliament which ultimately resulted in the passing of the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Authority Act of 1996 by the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature on 1 December 1996.

The Tourism Division during the period under review also represented the Province at the National level through the IPTC, that is (Interim Provincial Technical Committee), at various tourism fora convened by the National Department of Environment Affairs and Tourism, the South African Tourism Board and the Interprovincial Tourism Forum.  The Tourism Division also attended the ITB in Berlin and made a presentation at a Tourism Development Seminar held at the South African Embassy in Bonn in March 1996.

THE SHARKS BOARD

I would now like to turn to the work of the Sharks Board.  This year the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism is allocating an amount of R12,1 million to the Sharks Board.  The subsidy paid by the Province to the Board is mainly used to finance the installation of shark nets for local authorities along the coastline.  The Board has had to increase its charges to the clients by around 31% to meet rising costs.  Even so, the total revenue received from the clients only represent 16% of the actual cost of rendering the service.  It is clear that the Board will have to broaden its revenue base in order to sustain its activities.

The Board has been focusing increasingly on generating new sources of finance and effecting savings by streamlining its operations.  The Research Department has been playing a central role in this regard.  The Board's scientists have developed a unique electronic shark repellant device.  This device has already attracted a lot of interest from abroad.  Following this invention, the Sharks Board was contracted by the Urban Service Council of Hong Kong to design, manufacture, install and then maintain shark exclusion nets at six of their bathing beaches for a period of one year.  This contract has netted a profit of R4 million for the Sharks Board.  Projects like these could provide a major source of revenue for the Sharks Board and reduce its reliance on the subsidy from the Provincial Government.  The Board will also be increasing its revenues through its tourism and education facilities.  

I have no doubt that the Sharks Board is a great asset to this Province and deserves our support.

PERSONNEL ADMINISTRATION

This section is responsible for the following functions:

-	Personnel provisioning
-	Personnel utilisation
-	Personnel development and registry services

Five out of ten management cadre posts have been filled.  For the remaining posts candidates have been interviewed and the recommendation of the Provincial Service Commission is awaited.  Also in the lower levels appointments are to be made soon.  For example, the replacement of personnel who joined the Department of Nature and Conservation has not as yet taken place.  This has in particular affected the work of the Transport as well as Registry and Typing sections.

Human Resource Development is accorded a high priority in this Department.  Officers are periodically sent for in-service training courses provided by the Training Directorate in the Provincial Service Commission, the South African Management and Development Institute in Pretoria, and the National Institute for Economic Policy (NIEP).

Over the past year, three officers were released for study purposes in tertiary institutions.  Five students were granted bursaries to pursue studies for a Bachelor of Commerce degree.  Three of these are now serving within the Department and two are still studying with satisfactory results.


AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES DIVISION

The Auxiliary Services consists of the following subdivisions:

-	Stores services
-	Inspectorate
-	Purchases
-	Payments
-	Transport
-	Typing pool
-	Registry and
-	Estimates

Mr Speaker, it is now my pleasure to submit for consideration, the estimates of expenditure of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism for which I am responsible.

SUMMARY OF BUDGET ACCORDING TO STANDARD ITEMS

(a)	PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE
	An amount of R10,9 million which is allocated under this item, represents a decrease of R1,4 million from the previous year.

(b)	ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE
	R3,3 million is allocated under this item, which represents a decrease of R551 000 over the previous year.

(c)	STORES AND LIVESTOCK
	An amount of R562 000 is allocated, which represents an increase of R33 000 over the previous year.

(d)	EQUIPMENT
	R2,8 million is allocated, which represents a decrease of R1,3 million over the previous year.

(e)	LAND AND BUILDING
	None


(f)	PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIALISED SERVICES
	An allocation of R15,9 million under this item represents an increase of R11 million over the 1996/97 financial year.  This will assist in the appointment of consultants to increase the execution capacity of the Department.  A larger percentage of this amount will be directed towards tourism development in the Province.

(g)	TRANSFER PAYMENT
	The allocation of R79,9 million under this item represents a decrease of R2,7 million over the 1996/97 estimates.

(h)	MISCELLANEOUS EXPENDITURE
	The allocation of R80 000 under this item represents a decrease of R70 000 over the 1996/97 allocation.

The amount of funds requested for the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism is thus R112 885 000 excluding an amount of R345 000 which forms a direct charge on the KwaZulu-Natal Revenue Fund in terms of Section 2 of the KwaZulu-Natal Remuneration Act No 2 of 1994.

It is now my pleasure and honour to move for the adoption of the 1997/98 vote for the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, hon Minister Zuma.  At this point, hon members, I wish to hand over to ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to take the chair.

~INKOSI~ MDLETSHE TAKES OVER AS CHAIRPERSON

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much, Mr Mohlomi.  I think we have to start now with our debate.  I will ask hon Mr A J Hamilton.  You have 15 minutes, Mr Hamilton.  Thank you.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I have pleasure in supporting the departmental budget and congratulating our Minister.

The Province of KwaZulu-Natal had a geographic growth of 3,5% last year in comparison with 2,9% GDP for South Africa.  This higher growth rate in comparison to the Republic of South Africa confirms a long history of consistently out performing the national figure and this has been achieved in spite of the widely held belief, erroneously I might add, that we are the most crime ridden violent Province in the Republic of South Africa.

In fact let us knock that particular false perception hard on the head, right now.  The following statistics apply per 10 000 persons and are sourced from the SAPS.

I will read them in category and in order of Gauteng, Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.  In each case KwaZulu-Natal is the last quoted number.




GAUTENG
W/CAPE
KZN
MURDER
3,6
3,9
2,8
ATTEMPTED MURDER
5,2
3,6
3,4
RAPE
7,9
7,1
2,9
RESIDENTIAL HOUSEBREAKING
57
49
21
THEFT FROM M/V
52
46
19
THEFT OF M/V
40
12
10

In fact that is per 10 000 head of the population.  In fact you will see that in every instance in the six serious crime categories listed, this Province is lower than Gauteng and the Western Cape.  In fact in many instances we are a quarter or a third of the frequency rate for either of the other two provinces.

So whilst comparisons are odious and we certainly have no room for smugness or complacency, our crime levels are shocking, but let us concentrate on the very positive developments and opportunities we have in our Province and build on them.  Let us concentrate on putting out a positive image of our Province because let us face it, we have achieved a remarkable level of investment from both the private and public sector.  Some 35% of foreign investment in the RSA this last year came here and some 40% in the previous year.

I will not recount the list of major investments, some R21 billions worth that I quoted to this hon House on Monday, but I will add to that total by listing additional infrastructure or developments announced to the approximate value of R3,5 billion in and around the North Coast including:

i)	Commercial/industrial infrastructure at Effingham Heights.
ii)	Commercial, industrial and residential land development.
iii)	N2 interchange and link road into the North Coast road.
iv)	Relocation of Umhlanga CBD to the Gateway Shopping Mall.

In addition to these projects there are dozens of smaller projects being initiated throughout the Province.

I have tried to demonstrate the strength and hardiness of our KwaZulu-Natal economy.  Perhaps this can be further highlighted by the statement made by the European Community's representative at the European's Unions launch of the Cato Manor project stating that:

	The majority of our more than R600 million annual budget for this year will be directed to KwaZulu-Natal because this was the only province that could absorb these funds with its vibrant and prosperous economy.

On top of it all Metropolitan Durban has been identified as South Africa's global competitor.  In terms of the irreversible world trend towards globalisation of regional economies, this is a really dramatic advantage for our Province, the importance of which I do not think is fully realised.  It really is a magnificent opportunity for us.

This said, there are some important things that we as a Provincial Government must do in conjunction with the metropole and city and town councils all over the Province, such as ensuring that we all become development and business friendly, and discard entirely the impression so often created, that we are all more interested in telling investors why they cannot do something, than telling them why they can do it.

It is a widely held view that we are a difficult Province to invest in.  Perhaps we can all become development facilitators by all tiers of Government agreeing to appoint, for example, Regional "Ombudsmen" who would have real powers to smash through any red tape which they perceive to be a hinderance to development.

We need to aggressively raise the profile of KwaZulu-Natal both nationally and internationally.  Perhaps by the establishment of well staffed promotion offices in carefully selected national and international centres and mounting Investment/Outreach Programmes, foreign trade missions and twinning etc.

We need to consider such incentives to prospective investors as free or reduced land prices or even long term leasehold (at peppercorn rentals), rates holidays, reduced electricity tariffs.  All such concessions should be based on such criteria as job creation potential, even downstream job creation, and contribution to the gross geographic product.

We must strive for the introduction of an education system at all levels, geared to the economic needs of our Province, that will produce young people who are employable when they enter the market or better still, who have the outlook and capability of becoming employers themselves.

I realise that there will be people who beat their breasts saying we will not produce rounded students but, wonderful Constitutions, great thinkers, and all the fine democratic principles in the world will not amount to a row of beans if people have no jobs!

On the subject of jobs, there can be no doubt that in the short term the rapid, dedicated promotion of tourism nationally and internationally is the quickest way to create massive numbers of jobs and business opportunities.  Central to achieving this goal is that we do whatever we have to, make whatever sacrifices are necessary to bring about the construction of the King Shaka International Airport, for only by doing this will we become a real international gateway in our own right.  That is a fact.

In the longer term, given the wonderful fertile soil and good rainfall, agriculture will become our best job creator through aggressive agricultural extension in the intensive small scale sector, that is the Thukela Basin and by perhaps encouraging our existing farmers to increase production of luxury produce such as mangoes, avocados, citrus and litchis.  Not only would this create vastly more jobs but will be a huge generator of foreign capital.

However, this goal is also dependent on the construction of King Shaka International Airport with excellent airfreight capacity.

Perhaps, the most compelling reason of all for relocating our existing airport to King Shaka is that it frees up the land at Durban International Airport and that brings me to the subject of our greatest competitive and comparative advantage, our ports of Durban and Richards Bay which together account for well over 70% of all goods leaving and arriving in the Republic of South Africa.

The port of Durban alone accounts for 30 000 jobs within the Durban Functional Region.  Without it there would be no metropole, probably not even a Durban.  350 industrial undertakings are located in Durban because it is a port city.  Billions of Rands are generated by the port.  Every container entering or leaving the port brings us R1 700,00.  Every container vessel that arrives spends an average of R670 000 on port dues, victualling, wharfage, cranage, transportation, repairs etcetera.  Our port of Durban ranks 23rd as the world's busiest port and is by far the busiest port in the Southern Hemisphere.

But it is running out of capacity very fast.  Even with the fullest development of its potential we will run out of capacity by the year 2008.  It is here that the importance of the 750 hectares of Durban International Airport land becomes apparent, because it is here that a new separate dedicated super container and bulk liquids hub port can and must be built.  The site was made for a port with very nearly ideal geotechnil conditions.  The phased construction of this new port would give us a capacity of between six and seven million containers per annum.

This great opportunity is not pie in the sky.  It is a very real option.  We know from a technical point of view it is quite possible.  We must back and support it to the hilt for by helping to bring it about we will have secured, together with the port of Richards Bay, a limitless economic future for our people.

Also the reason for going ahead with the new Durban dedicated container and bulk liquids port are manifold.  To enumerate but a few:

1.	We have established that the geo-tech conditions are ideal with marine sand and shell to a depth of 26,9 metres and thereafter cretaceous rock resulting in cheap quay wall construction requiring piling to a depth of less than one-third and sometimes one-fifth of the depth that would be required in Richards Bay for example.
2.	The new port is easily serviced by both existing road and rail infrastructures.
3.	Close proximity to major airfreight facilities which compliment the sea freight segment.
4.	With the concentration of container handling facilities we will be able to install the best port container handling facilities necessary to become a real hub port of excellence equal to the best in the world.
5.	To the south and south-west of this new port are vast tracts of land suitable for industrial development.
6.	The new port will give us ample room to take full advantage of the huge transhipment opportunities waiting for us.

Complementing this concentration of container handling excellence is the massive port of Richards Bay with its world class record breaking excellence in bulk facilities.  By concentrating on each of the ports different areas of excellence we will have the ability to move far into the future century and to maintain and develop our pre-eminence and competitive advantage.

By helping to bring about this new port we will have created a vast block of land between the two ports ideally sited and situated to become an industrial development zone which in itself will create huge job opportunities to economic expansion.

Let us never forget that it costs more to transport a shipping container to Gauteng than to ship the same container to Singapore or Sydney.  Increasingly this reality is dawning on manufacturers based in the South African hinterland, and in the end the economics will always be the deciding factor.

We must invest, invest and invest again in infrastructure by initiating such things as major secondary road construction programmes in our rural areas, thereby opening them up to development opportunities using labour intensive methods of course.  Earth wall dam construction.  Reafforestation programmes.

Such programmes have the advantage of lending themselves to labour intensive methods and of course are non-inflationary, whilst yielding ongoing benefit to our Province.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have two minutes to go.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Chairman, without doubt, KwaZulu-Natal has the greatest potential of any region in South Africa but we will not achieve that potential unless we believe in it, unless we are prepared to have the faith, the will and the dedication of purpose and vision to make the quantum leaps necessary to achieve it.

Let us break out and embrace our golden future with wide open minds, excitement and enthusiasm and let us be the winning Province in South Africa.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Dr M Sutcliffe.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Chair.  I rise to support the Ministry and the Minister of Economic Affairs in the budget for this Department.

I am going to focus on RDP, but the first comment I have is in response to some preliminary comments of the hon Mr Hamilton where I would certainly agree with him.  We have got to do something about levels of crime because they impact on tourism.  We must also deal with the issue of victims, and let me give you one case in which we have got to change our whole attitude as to what we do.

A young American student was informing me yesterday, that she had her passport and credit cards and the like stolen about a week ago.  She had to have everything replaced.  So she got her air ticket okay, got a new passport from the American Embassy, then went to the Department of Home Affairs.  She has one week left of her stay here.  She stood in a queue for a few hours, eventually gets to the front of the queue and in a fairly abusive way, the person then demands of her another R500,00 for her visa, even though the visa is sitting in the computer just to stamp it in her passport.

What kind of image are we projecting when we carry on treating people, not as if they are in fact our clients, but they should in fact be subservient to us.  So it is changing those attitudes that begins to be very important.

I am going to focus on the RDP because that is an aspect of changing our attitudes.  When the RDP was accepted by the Government of National Unity it really revolved around three things, the ABC of the RDP, if I could put it that way.

The first, the A was that we needed an affirmative action approach to the way in which Government is addressing issues.  Much like Malaysia, the growth that we talk about in Malaysia was because they had an affirmative action policy, that broadened the base of entrepreneurs in that society and allowed that society to grow.

The B was about building the economy in particular but building also capacity in our Province and in our country.

And the third, the C aspect, was that it needed to be community driven, community led, that we should not have initiatives that are really individuals who are claiming to be representative of communities doing their own things.

RDP in this Province, and it has happened in other parts of the country as well, has often not operated on those lines.  We certainly will commend some of those initiatives that have occurred.  The RDP lead project programme has to a large extent been very beneficial.  We have had wonderful initiatives around water, wonderful initiatives around housing and the like.  Certainly we should commend all of those line function departments for ensuring that they have got that job done.

We must say that there is something fundamentally wrong, that this Province gets given in 1994 something like R3/R4 million for project preparation initiatives and that money does not get spent.  We complained about this last year.  In November again the Director General was asked what are you doing about that and still nothing is happening there.

I am part, together with Nkosinathi Ndelu, Co-chairs of a trust that has in 18 months given to communities on project preparation more than R3,5 million.  We are now issuing another R3,5 million as it were that has come from USAID.  That money is money that gets repaid by communities.  Now if an NGO can do that why can Government not do that when it has money that can be given as grants.

So the first is we must put on record again that there is something problematic, that we are not getting that money spent.

The most important thing I want to focus on, because it will impact on the way in which we address the contingency funds that our Premier is leading a programme, on the funding of programmes, is when we look at this Discretionary Fund of the RDP.  In the Economic Affairs Portfolio Committee the Director General was asked on 18 October last year what is happening in terms of that programme.

Again he gave a broad outline that the project needs to cover the Province, these are the principles etcetera but no concrete details given.  On 15 November again, a similar report goes to the Economic Affairs Portfolio Committee, all minuted, but again a complaint from that Committee from across the board in that Committee, what actually is happening?  We need information on what projects are being funded.  Nothing comes forward.

On 14 February this year, the Director General is again asked what is happening in that programme, and again the information is not forthcoming.

Finally, when we sit in the Finance Committee and we ask for that information, this is some six months after the Economic Affairs Portfolio Committee asks, the information is forthcoming.  A list of four pages of discretionary projects.

Now I do not want to focus on those projects in detail, but we said let us randomly select five of those projects, and actually look at whether those are accomplishing the kinds of things that should be accomplished.  Let me go through each of them.

The first is a local governance project, ~Amakhosi~ Community Project.  It is supposed to be community led.  If you look at it, it is based in Glenmore in Durban, somewhere there.  I have been there, there is no such community based project that anyone can find.  So the first thing I would have done as an administrator is to say where is the community base here of this particular project.

Here we have committed R170 000 to a project, what this project did was it went and interviewed 12 ~Amakhosi~ in the Province.  Those 12 ~Amakhosi~ then came to the conclusion or they told the researchers the ~Amakhosi~ were not the project, they were the subject of the project.  Those ~Amakhosi~ came to a conclusion in saying to the researchers, "No we need some training.  We need to be told how to access RDP funds and we need to in fact find out a little bit more about development initiatives".  R170 000 committed to this project, colleagues.

Imagine if we said to ~Inkosi~ Khawula and ~Inkosi~ Mlaba, "~Inkosi~ Mathaba, here is a fund of R170 000 and work on ways in which ~Amakhosi~ in this Province could be empowered", I can guarantee you that money would have been properly spent.  That money would have in fact gone out in a way in which there would have been real empowerment.  Is this empowerment I ask?

A second one is a project called the Anti-car Theft Community Project based in KwaMashu.  K1963 is the address of this project.  Again I have driven to K1963.  There is no real office there.  There is no real community base there.  You speak to people in KwaMashu, they do not know what this project is.  It is not alive in that community.

This is a project that R210 000 was committed to.  In two months they put forward a budget to spend R45 000.  What are those funds to be spent on?  R11 000 would go on printing of stickers.  R18 000 would go on purchasing anti-crime T-shirts and the list continues.  Lots of money of course for meeting and travelling costs.  Lots of money for catering for committee members, ~Amakhosi~ etcetera on that thing.

Now is that community empowerment that we want?  We all support anti-car theft initiatives but let us look at initiatives that are really serious.  Go to the Safety and Security Committee and say, "What initiatives can we embark on, that addresses the issue of anti-car theft", for example.

You then have two other projects.  One is the street children project, which really is doing excellent work.  That is the difficulty one has, because you find that when you go through these projects some really good community based initiatives in our Province unfortunately get lumped with a lot of rubbish.  You start saying to yourself what is going on.  It is not like there is a plan that people, and I certainly do not want to say that the Director General is himself dealing with this, but there is something fundamentally wrong.

I would have thought a project on ~Amakhosi~ development and local governance should have first gone to the Traditional Affairs subcommittee and say to them, "Do you know of this project?  Do you think it is good?  Can you give us more ideas?  Should we spend R170 000 in this way".

So, colleagues, the message I want to give today, and I will end at this point, is simply to say that when we are dealing with discretionary funds, dealing with contingency funds, let us make sure that we are as open as possible, that we receive comments from members of this Legislature, from outside this Legislature before we go ahead with initiatives.  Otherwise we will find ourselves with such a mixed bag that we will not know what is good, what is bad.  The press then will comment and say this is a problem and some really fine projects then end up getting lumped with that.

That is the message I give today, hon Chair, to support this budget but plead with the Minister to convey to Cabinet, because that is not a line function responsibility of the Minister alone, it really is of all the Cabinet to simply say we need to focus on these projects and make sure they really empower.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you the hon member].

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Chairman, I must say I hope this is not becoming a habit.  You see, the last time I stood up here a few days ago, I said I agreed with one of the hon members to my right, and now a lot of what the hon member Dr Sutcliffe has said I agree with.  I agree that something is wrong.  That we are not moving as fast as we should do.

The needs of this Province are so great.  We have got the largest population in South Africa of any of the provinces.  We need a very high growth rate in our Gross Geographic Product which we are not getting.  Indeed, we are being outpaced by the Western Cape, which upsets me, because I am first and foremost, as a South African, a citizen or a resident of this Province.

This growth in the GGP must be a measure of just how good are we.  KwaZulu-Natal must become the star of this country, especially when it comes to economic growth.  It is only through economic growth that the jobs for our unemployed will be provided.  We have got everything in this Province.  We have got the market, 22% of South Africa's people live in this Province.  A lot of them are an underdeveloped consumer market.  They are living, many of them, in poverty.  Their consumer needs should be met through development.

We also can export to the rest of Southern Africa, and with the two biggest ports in South Africa we should become a major exporter to overseas countries.  We have got an abundance of natural resources, we have got an abundance of labour even if it is unskilled labour.  They can be trained very simply to do productive and repetitive productive jobs.  Skilled labour is available.

Capital resources are available in this Province.  There are many, many billions of Rands in South Africa looking for investment and it should be available to this Province.  The infrastructure is top class.  How many of us have had overseas visitors come to this Province and say how wonderful our infrastructure is with excellent roads and airports and telephones and so on?  

We have an opportunity to get translocations of industries from Gauteng into this Province.  Indeed it is beginning to happen.  We have got investment promotion organisations like the KFC and the KMI who are doing a good job.  So what is wrong, because something is definitely wrong?

First of all, as has been mentioned there is crime.  The perception people have of KwaZulu-Natal is that crime is rampant.  The hon Mr Hamilton said that our figures are not as bad as other provinces.  But, Mr Chairman, when you get an incident that happened this very day, when an ANC councillor from Richmond gets shot at his home; when he has refused to resign as other ANC have resigned from that council in support of our erstwhile colleague, Mr Nkabinde, who was expelled from the ANC, and then when the chief spokesman from the ANC says, as I heard on radio this morning, that this is a result of a third force in this Province, then I ask, who is kidding who?  We have got to face the reality of these events and try not to evade the truth.

I spoke about the activities of that erstwhile member of this Parliament in this House some time ago.  I am pleased the ANC have been seen to get rid of him from their party, but for the ANC to now say there is a third force behind this killing, I mean who is kidding who?

Other than crime, there is an element of uncertainty in this Province and its institutions.  Uncertainty exists within the KFC itself as to what its future is.  Mr Chairman, if you want to stimulate and motivate people and get public servants or people working for an organisation, to get off their backsides and get fire in their belly to develop this Province, they have got to have confidence first and foremost in the security of their own jobs.  I believe this does not exist at present within the public service.  Some of our best qualified people, do not feel confident that they have a future in the job they are doing, with the Provincial Administration at the present time.  This is killing initiative and it is creating a lot of apathy.

There is also this concern about security and our police force. Coming here this morning, I listened on the radio to a phone-in show about POPCRU's argument with the police force.  If one just listened to this programme, indeed anybody listening to this radio programme will say, "For heaven sake, cut out this quibbling, get down and do your job".  Exactly what is POPCRU wanting, Mr Chairman?  This undisciplined action of public servants is creating the doubt and concern in the minds of potential investors.

Then there is an inertia that exists in this Province which is delaying progress.  Let us take the Tourism Bill.  I want to speak frankly to the hon Minister today.  I want to first thank him for putting me on the Interim Provincial Tourism Steering Committee, because it has been a very worthwhile experience for me, and I find that the people on that Committee are doing a good job.

But we have not moved as fast as we should have.  We have passed the Tourism Bill in this Parliament yet we have made no real progress in selling our Province.  I was at the Durban airport the other day seeing someone off, and there is a big placard from the Eastern Cape Tourism Board; they have already got their Tourism Board established, and here they are already advertising the Eastern Cape in our airport.  We have yet to establish our Tourism Board.

I want to ask the hon Minister why the delay?  Why, Mr Minister?  We have advertised twice and we are going to have to advertise yet a third time for nominations to our Tourism Board.

I want to say to the hon Minister, and I do not know if he is aware of this, the first time his Department placed the advertisement it was based on the original Bill, not the amended Bill which became the Act.  So it was illegal.  All those applicants that applied and were nominated had to be told, "No, hold it.  I am afraid that the advertisement was based on the wrong Act".

Then they published the ad again based on the correct Act.  Then we found it was illegal because the hon Minister or the Premier had not yet signed the Act and it therefore had not been promulgated.  The Department went to great lengths to find out whether it could avoid having to advertise a third time, but this could not be done legally.  This surely must indicate that there is incompetence somewhere in the Minister's Department.  "How much did it cost", one might ask.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR G S BARTLETT:  Yes, the hon member is trying to defend her Minister which is fair enough, they belong to the same party.  She says, "get all the facts", but these are the facts.  It was advertised twice and it may have to be advertised a third time.  So there is this inertia, Mr Chairman, which is hamstringing development.

Another problem is getting the various departments involved in planning for development co-ordinated so as to streamline development applications.  I was in the Cabinet at the time the Cabinet took a decision months and months ago arising from a request from the hon Minister, if I remember correctly, that there should be co-ordination between his Department and the Departments of Agriculture and of Local Government and Housing to get their act together, in assisting the land use planning of this Province.  In fact, I have got two questions on the Order Paper for tomorrow when I hope I will get the answers as to progress in this regard.  From what I have heard, this has never been done.

Mr Chairman, we find from sitting on the Economic Affairs Committee and especially on the Tourism Committee, that there are many people who would love to invest in this Province.  For instance, we heard of a major international American based hotel group who wanted to build a large hotel in this Province and also their Southern African headquarters.  They ran into so much red tape with this Province that eventually a group from the Western Cape heard about these problems and spoke to them and suggested they should rather invest in the Western Cape.  They have now decided to move their whole operation to the Western Cape.  This came up at one of our meetings on investment.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Investment in the tourism industry is extremely important to our Province.  So what is really required now, to try and be positive?  I believe the hon Minister and the Cabinet must start to get their priorities right.  You know, we talk, talk, talk, talk, and very little gets done.  Indeed the Minister, according to this speaking schedule, was allowed 30 minutes.  He spoke for an hour and 15 minutes.  I am not being overly critical but we could have read a lot of what he said in his Department's report.  There is too much talk and not enough action in this Province and this must change.

Secondly, we have got to get our act together.  After identifying our priorities, we have got to get our act together and get all the public servants in the relevant departments working together to open the way for investors and developers.  Thirdly, we must speed up the processes of getting development going.  Do you know, Mr Chairman, it takes three to four to five years to get planning approval for certain developments.

Fourthly, we have got to encourage investment through a "one-stop shop" which the Tourism Committee is planning, I am pleased to tell the Minister.  We are going to get a "one-stop shop" within the Tourism Board and Tourism KwaZulu-Natal to which potential investors can come for assistance in getting on with their projects.  We have got to support organisations like the KFC and the KMI that are doing a wonderful job, not only to get investment from overseas but also investment from Gauteng.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Time is up.

MR G S BARTLETT:  So this is my appeal to the Minister.  We are behind him 100% but let us get moving.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you, I am now going to ask the hon member Mr J Aulsebrook who has ten minutes].

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, hon members of this House.  This budget, like that of the Premier's, is a relatively small budget but the expectations from this Ministry and Department are exceptionally great.

This is the Department that is expected to promote economic growth in this Province.  In doing so it would address the issues of unemployment and certainly raise the standard of living for the majority of people in this Province.

The most significant contribution that we as a Government can play in this role, is to provide legislation and create a climate conducive to economic growth.  Here I refer not only to big formal business but also to the SMMEs.  I was pleased to hear the hon Minister announcing that his Department would be putting in a Government support desk for SMMEs.  It is just a pity we did not do it three years ago, but better late than never.

Looking at KwaZulu-Natal, fifteen maybe as little as ten years ago, KwaZulu-Natal was the hub of the shoe and clothing industry in South Africa.  This is a labour intensive industry.  Today it is but a shadow of what it used to be and there are basically two reasons for this.

One being cheap imports, and this is where I feel Government could play a role in influencing controls on some of those cheap imports, particularly those coming from countries that do not adhere to acceptable labour standards, those that allow child labour.  These are the people that are eroding our own industries by dumping cheap goods on our markets.

The second is the politicised trade unions that have contributed to the demise of these industries.  I do not intend embarking on a union bashing exercise, as I honestly believe that unions have a role to play in looking after the interests and welfare of workers, preventing their exploitation.  They must now learn to become responsible.

If one looks at the COSATU affiliated unions, that are now investing in industry, one needs to just look at the industries and the type of industries they invest in.  They are not labour intensive industries and one asks why.  Enough on that issue.

On Tuesday, during the budget debate, Mr Hamilton gave us loads of facts and figures with regards to the economy of this Province.  He referred to R21 billion being invested.  That R21 billion was made up of R1,6 billion by Toyota, ISCOR were going to invest R1,5 billion.  SAPREF in two of its projects, R5 billion.

Well, this is all good news for us and we as a Government should encourage it.  Really one must examine these investments and then maybe we would not rest on our laurels and feel that our goals are being achieved entirely.  These businesses in fact are not likely to address our problem of unemployment.

In fact, I saw an article in the paper, of a company about to invest R250 million in this Province.  In the article they also stated that when it comes into full production it could employ up to 80 people.  We need to look at other means of attending to our unemployment problem.

I am not saying that these major investments, the peripheral and support businesses to them, will not likely employ a lot more people than these particular businesses themselves.  For that we certainly must be grateful.  But it is the small, medium and micro enterprises that we as a Province need to focus on, that is where the solution to our unemployment problem will come.

How do we promote it?  We have heard the Minister, with some of his ideas and I am certainly supportive of them, but it is actually training and education that is needed.  Education, one would need to go right back to school level.  Possibly a subject we need there is entrepreneurial skills and this would then address the issue that Dr Sutcliffe mentioned as his first point of broadening the economic base.  This is how we would get to the very bottom level of our economy and start addressing it.

At our last sitting, this House passed the Tender Board Act, and this makes provision to assist SMMEs in participating in Government contracts.  Quite honestly without adequate training, most of our people will not be able to take advantage of the provisions of that Act.

I sort of think back of SMMEs, and everyone, certainly when it comes to micro enterprises, thinks in terms of street traders and certainly in this Province we have our fair share of street traders.  But are we doing enough for them?  By allowing them just to trade on the streets, is that really what Government should be doing?  Should we not possibly provide in the city centre somewhere, a proper facility for them, proper stalls with lock up facilities for their goods, with ablution blocks.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In that way they can transform from totally informal to semi-formal businesses and then we would really be making progress.  I think back of the 60s when I visited Maputo or Lourenco Marques, as it was called then.  In the city centre was a market.  It was the hub of all commercial activity in Maputo and the local people, tourists, everyone thronged their daily.  These sort of concepts are what we should focus on in promoting small business.

In conclusion, I must mention tourism, and this is a most important segment.  But I would like to point out, that recently, the situation arose, where two international cruise liners visited our port and we all know the story there, it was well publicised.  People arrived, walked down the gangplank onto a derelict wharf to N shed.  There was nothing provided for them.

Now really when one asks the question where were the IPTSC that we fund, where was GDMA, where was Tourism Durban, where was TANK, where was the private sector?  Really these organisations come to this House asking for funds, telling us what they can do.  When they have a golden opportunity like this, they let it slip through their fingers.  More than 2 000 prime tourists, and they cannot cater for them.

Certainly the private sector are also to blame.  They are the ones that keep pointing a finger at Government and saying we are not doing enough.  Please, I appeal to the private sector, meet us halfway.  They could have at least made some effort on that particular occasion.

The press could have helped us.  They could have publicised the fact in advance, not paint the bleak picture afterwards.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Time up.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs C M Cronje.  You have got 12 minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am going to concentrate in my speech on the tourism programme of this budget vote.

In this Province we have the magnificent Drakensberg, the game reserves such as ~Hluhluwe~, ~Umfolozi~, ~Ndumu~, ~Mkuze~, ~Tembe~ Elephant Park, ~Itala~, to name but a few.  We have the beautiful Maputoland Coastal Reserve.  We have St Lucia Wetlands Park.  We have the beautiful Midlands where I live - and so we can go on.

We also have the people, the culture, the history, the music and the talent, as we saw last night.  Whilst it is the hon Minister Zuma's vote, we were all very happy to see him enjoying himself along with us last night, with the culture and the music of our people.

We also have a RICJ history, and archaeological sites of international fame and significance, as well as battlefields of great historical importance and interest.

I think with all these things, and one could go on, what we should say to ourselves: Are we making the most of it?  I do think that there is validity in the criticism levelled by the hon Mr Aulsebrook.  One actually also needs to take a hard look at oneself.  Are we making the most of it Internationally and Domestically?


INTERNATIONAL MARKET

I want to look at the international market, or that sector for a start.  I recently had the honour to speak on the National Tourism budget at the National Council of Provinces in Cape Town.  SATOUR nationally gets approximately R65 million per annum from the Government, from the National Tourism Budget.  It is the lion's share of the National Minister of Tourism's Budget.  Mainly for the purpose, and I made enquiries, of marketing South Africa abroad.

However, of that R65 million, and this is what the officials told me, approximately 50% is spent on administrative costs and the balance on marketing.  This gives you something in the region of R32 or R33 million per annum for the actual marketing of our country as a whole overseas.

We must also bear in mind that most of the payments that we have to make to the overseas countries would be in foreign exchange.  We all know what happens to R32 million if you now have to convert it, for instance, to Pound Sterling and so on.  It becomes virtually nothing.

One can only then conclude, and this is what the National Minister said, that that budget was grossly inadequate, because if you want to promote overseas all the provinces in the country overseas, you then also have to chop it up into nine different bits, plus the overall marketing of South Africa.

Now here in our Province the situation is equally bleak.  Tourism gets some R12 million per annum and it is roughly the same as the Natal Sharks Board gets from our very same budget.  I am sorry to say that the original purpose of the Sharks Board was to kill sharks.  It was as simple as that.  It is still in fact happening.  There may now be a different philosophy, but the de facto situation is that many species of fish, not only sharks have become endangered (as a result of sharknets0 and some are on the verge of being extinct.

AN HON MEMBER:  Sharks have come on the line.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  We also compare very unfavourably, when we compare ourselves with what other countries spend on marketing.  In particular, one can refer to Australia, which is putting a huge percentage, I forget the exact percentage now, of their National budget into marketing their country.

However, the main issue for us in the Province is whether that amount spent by SATOUR such as it is, is spent wisely and to best effect and whether it is spent equitably to promote all the provinces.  I am not arguing for an advantage for this Province, that I do not want the others to have.

Past experience has shown that our Province does not get the exposure that it deserves internationally, and therefore you find that most international tourists come to South Africa to see Cape Town, Table Mountain, a bit of the Wine Route, and then they go off to Kruger Park.  That is South Africa.  It is not the international tourist's fault, it is our fault, it is our fault.  They simply do not know, for instance, what we as a Province can offer.  I have listed all those things that we can, inter alia, offer.  What about the other provinces?  There are provinces that have a lot to offer.

Such a situation is simply unacceptable and we made a very strong plea in Cape Town for a fair and equitable marketing of all the provinces.  I do believe that the National Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is sensitive to the situation.  He has only recently taken over as we all know, from the NP Minister and I do believe that he is taking our comments seriously and that he can see the problem.  However, the amount for marketing is still wholly inadequate, as I have stressed.

DOMESTIC MARKET

When we then turn to the domestic market with the R12 million that our hon Minister has been given, he simply cannot do the job that is required of him, if he truly wants to transform tourism.  I want to emphasise, if he wants to transform tourism, develop tourism and promote tourism.  He has got to do all those things with R12 million!

I have yet to understand why all the people that you ever speak to agree that tourism can be the lead economic sector in the Province and we are not prepared to spend the money on it to make it a lead sector.  You know, to me there is something so illogical in that.  You cannot have it both ways.

I had a chat with the hon Minister about it last night and he said to me tourism is the cow that will give us the milk.  What I want to add is that if you want to get milk from a cow you must look after the cow, you must feed it and at least you actually have to have a cow.  We want the milk but we do not even have the money to buy a cow, or maybe one little cow.  [LAUGHTER]

I cannot understand that year after year we have to stand here and we have to make the same point while we are quite happy to squander millions on unnecessary buildings and ideologically inspired dreams that will never become true.  The hon Mr Gwala is back now.  I want to draw the attention of hon members to the press cutting circulated today.  "IFP determined to press ahead with extravagant plans", with a picture, a rather nice picture of the hon Mr Gwala.  You can flip through the press cuttings.

MR M B GWALA:  We won the election.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  "~Ulundi~ expenditure justified".

MR M B GWALA:  We won the election.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  "Philip Powell", and so you can go on, and we say we do not have money for tourism.  Let us use those millions rather to develop for instance Maputoland, the very Maputoland that Mr Gwala loves and that I love too.  Let us develop it into the tourist haven that it can be.  Let us get sufficient money to assist poor people in our Province.

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  On a point of order.  It is hon Mr Gwala, not Mr Gwala.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  My apologies.  Hon Mr Gwala.  Let us get sufficient money to assist the poor people in our Province to develop tourism facilities, in which they can have a real stake.  It can be done!  We all know that our hon Minister has the political will and the enthusiasm to do so, but he must have a cow.

It hurts me when I speak to communities living adjacent to beautiful State owned conservation parks, who could benefit enormously from tourist developments, both inside those parks, and on the outskirts of such parks.  We, as the Government, have a duty to assist them too, and I am quoting from the White Book, from the budget:

	To promote, develop, co-ordinate and facilitate tourism to and in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

That is a tall order.  That is what programme 4 of the vote compels us to do.

TRANSFORMATION

I want to look at transformation of tourism.  We also need to transform tourism so that everybody in the Province can become tourists in their own Province and country.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I was quite amazed and saddened when we went to Cathedral Peak for our workshop at the beginning of the year.  Many of us there had never been to the Drakensberg, in our own country.  Now what about the millions of poor people who might not even be dreaming that such a place might exist.

Are communities living next to State owned parks encouraged to visit those parks as tourists in their own country, to enjoy the beauty of the country of their birth?  I want to give you some examples that really do not only sadden me, but infuriate me.

If you look at the Kosi Bay area, the Chamber of Mines has a holiday facility there, a luxury holiday facility in a prime spot on State owned conservation land.  They have a PTO.  I do not know how they got it.  Historically it was a recruitment office.  You and I cannot get a PTO to go and live and build a beach cottage in a prime spot in Kosi Bay.  The Chamber of Mines has it.  I do not know why, but they have it.  I saw it with my own eyes.

I can give you other examples.  There are private individuals who have PTOs to live in the Maputoland Nature Reserve, in the State owned park, a few, a handful of private individuals who live there with PTOs.  They have a luxury and they enjoy a benefit in a pristine, or what was a pristine area until they got there, a beautiful stretch of our coast.  What about the people who actually were chased out of those areas so that it could become State owned conservation land, and now sit on the outside looking at these few individuals enjoying a right that we do not have and that those very communities do not have.  There is something fundamentally wrong.

Tourism should be developed to the benefit of the local communities.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Time is up.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  And we as a Legislature must get answers to those questions that I am putting here.  Who are those private individuals with the PTOs?  How did they get them?  Why do they have that benefit?

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The hon members time is over, it is finished]. 

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Sorry, is my time up?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call upon the hon member Mr W U Nel.  You have got six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you very much, Chairman.  In following the hon member Mrs Cronje, I would hope to encourage her by saying that is precisely the reason we are motivating for an additional R20 million, to be given to tourism on a Rand for Rand scheme, with the private sector to contribute as well.

I want to lodge, however, for the record also our complaint as minority parties about the debating allocation here, the time allocation.  The fact that two votes have been thrown into one, and we end up with no debating time whatsoever.  If the proportional system of debating time allocation should apply in this House, then I would submit that you start with the minority parties and ask them what time they require to put the issues which they deem relevant on the table, and then the other parties can have proportionately more.  But if the large parties have nothing to say then they must not penalise us for it.  I now have to spend about five minutes to discuss two votes.

It is with a sense of exasperation that I bring an amendment today, following on the amendment brought by my colleague the hon Mr Burrows yesterday, and I move as follows.

	THAT THIS HOUSE will move to suspend from vote 15, Promoting the Reconstruction and Development Programme the sum of R100 million and to allocate that amount to the following votes:

	Vote 3  : Agriculture		15 million
	Vote 4  : Economic Affairs and Tourism	10 million
	Vote 5  : Education		55 million
	Vote 13 : Social Welfare		20 million

I do that with some sense of regret.  I motivate as we did in an article the other day, that the money for agriculture can be spent to assist rural communities and also urban and peri-urban communities in productive agriculture.  It can be used as an RDP type of project to actually assist communities to enhance the agricultural potential.

The 10 million to Economic Affairs and Tourism is only half of the R20 million we are suggesting on a Rand for Rand scheme to which the private sector can also contribute, to feed this cow, tourism, that we have just heard about, so that it can produce milk.

The 55 million to education is in addition to what we already suggested yesterday to make up 135 million, which can be used by the Education Department in significant Reconstruction and Development Programmes in communities, including especially, the communities that have achieved peace.

Then lastly R20 million to social welfare which can be used to sponsor those NGOs and welfare organisation which have immense goodwill and skills and are ready to do the job of work but have run out of money.  They can especially also target communities that have achieved peace.

It is a sad fact, but I think we have to acknowledge, that the RDP is a dismal failure and remains so after three years.  The National Government eventually discovered it and they disbanded it and farmed it all out to line departments.

In this Province it seems we stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that.  I just want to quote some sections of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism Annual Report which we were handed this morning, to illustrate why I have no faith whatsoever in the reprioritisation of budget expenditure by using these other structures and not the line departments.

On page 6 of that report, paragraph 2.1, we read:

	The Ministry and the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism has been allocated the function of co-ordination of the RDP within the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  At the same time all other departments have been allocated responsibility of implementing projects falling within their departments and reporting not to this Minister but to Cabinet.

Then there is also a RDP Cabinet Committee.  I fail to understand how this structure can work.  While I am on this topic, I must just say that I briefly asked a chairman of one of the relevant committees just now, and he cannot tell me who the members of this RDP Cabinet Committee are.  I would like the Minister, when he replies, to tell us who the Ministers are who serve on this Cabinet Committee.  Who chairs it and when do they meet.

Then there is an RDP co-ordination Committee.  Again not this Minister's committee but a Co-ordination Committee which is made up of the Premier and I think this Minister and the Director General.  I do not know who else is on this Co-ordinating Committee and again the Chairman of the Economic Affairs and Tourism Committee is unable to tell me who serves on it.

Now that is why this project cannot and will never work.  It is a shambles and until this is rectified RDP will not work.

We turn to page 8 of this thing and we then see that the Department says.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR W U NEL:

	The delay in establishing RDP structures in the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism, due to unforeseen circumstances, has made it virtually impossible to manage the activities of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.

It then says that:

	The last special meeting of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee was held on 11 September.

This morning the Minister tells us that five meetings have been held since October of last year.  I want to know which is correct, but sufficient to say that this I think is evidence of the shambles in RDP.  I think the money should be directed directly for specific programmes to the line departments so we can have some success.  We cannot carry on like this.

A last comment perhaps, and this comes in the wake of all these lamentations of the hon Dr Sutcliffe in which he tells us here that all these projects do not work.  The Minister tells us that his Department is actually the one responsible for the Discretionary Funds and I think his secretary said in his report that they have R14 million to administer.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Time up.

MR W U NEL:  So this is the Department that should ensure that it works and they do not.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr A J Konigkramer for ten minutes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I should like to preface what I am going to say with a brief reference to the remarks made by the hon Premier yesterday, with regard to the image of the Province.

Having spoken out vigorously in support of the press which I always shall, I think though that we need to pay a little bit more attention to the self-image of this Province.  I think that there is an unfortunate tendency afoot in this Province of self-denigration.  We seem to have a penchant of positively loving to cause a hue and cry whenever there is a shortcoming or a human failing revealed in any sector of the Government.

This goes beyond a desire to ensure honest Government and an open and transparent public administration.  Nobody can find fault with public exposure and public accountability.  That we all welcome and, I also believe, that that will serve the long term interests of our Province to demonstrate, as the Cabinet and the Government has, that we are determined to root out corruption and that we will root it out when we come across it.  Is it really necessary to gloat and blow things out of all proportion?  Is it really necessary for our newspapers to sensationalise shortcomings that are unearthed by parliamentarians?  Why is it that this is not counter-balanced with good news about the satisfactory service delivery provided by the vast bulk of the civil service?

I would suggest that we as a Province need to look more seriously at the image we sometimes inadvertently portray to the world at large.  It is a matter of observation that you will, if you look at the newspapers of the Western Cape for example, you never see denigratory reports of the Province.  Why do we have it in our Province?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because some MPs gloat.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I think the other thing that the newspapers seem to do is to constantly write in such a way as to portray our Province as a loser.  That is simply inaccurate because the Province is actually a winning Province.  It is time that I think this message was got across more clearly.

Having said that, sometimes one fails to understand how newspapers which are businesses seem to engage in practices which actually destroy the economy.  So it is almost self-laceration and it is very difficult to understand why they do this.

I think the time has come that we as the Parliament, I know the Parliamentary Executive Board has looked at this but I think we need now in a very concerted basis to see what we can do to try and improve the image of our Province.  If you will excuse the pun, if we continue to portray ourselves as a banana Province then that is exactly what we will become.

Having spoken of a winning Province, we certainly are a winning Province in many sectors.  The one that I would like to touch on very briefly is the field of tourism.  There can be no doubt, despite the setbacks, despite the facts which the hon Mrs Cronje has dealt with this morning, that we have been disadvantaged in the past.  Despite all those shortcomings, it is a fact, that we are still the premier Province in tourism.  There is no doubt in my mind that this can be built on, and in fact, it will become the lead industry in our Province.

The hon Mrs Cronje has tabled some of the assets which we have.  I do not want to go over those but what I would like to spend a few minutes on is to look at some of the other assets, apart from the natural assets, which we have.  Mrs Cronje also pointed out that arguably the greatest asset we have is the Zulu people because the Zulu people, as I have said before, conjure up a magic in the minds of people all over the world.  That is something which simply nobody can take away from it and we need to build on it.

Having said that, in other words, if that is an asset and I think it has been generally agreed in this House that tourism is one of our lead sectors, but particularly cultural tourism is something we need to develop.  I would like to just make a few remarks on some of the cultural assets that we have.

I have mentioned before that if you look at the early history of KwaZulu-Natal it is absolutely unparalleled.  Starting with the Drakensberg which has got its own majesty, a natural majesty.  In the Drakensberg we have relics of the stone age, particularly the art of the San people which is simply unmatched anywhere in the world.  It is the greatest collection of rock art that there is anywhere.  We need to carefully, not only preserve it, but also to exploit it from a tourism point of view.

If you look at the early history dating back 2 000 years of the iron age in KwaZulu-Natal, essentially there are two periods.  From the year roughly 190 after Christ, in other words 190 AD the first early iron age settlements were started in KwaZulu-Natal.  It is interesting just as an aside, that the early iron age people seemed to have the same tastes as the modern fat cats, because if you look at where most of these settlements are they are in places like La Lucia and Umhlanga Rocks.  So they seem to have had the same taste.

There are early iron age settlements spread all over the Province, particularly also in the Tugela Basin and elsewhere and these are really incredible assets.  There are many places in our Province where there are furnaces dating back to these settlements.  We in the KwaZulu-Natal Monuments Council have unearthed extensive villages dating as far back as the 4th, the 5th and the 6th century.  This is an incredible asset which can be exploited for tourism.

Mrs Cronje did refer very briefly to another, which one could touch on very briefly, great asset that we have and that is the border cave.  That really is something very special.  As I have indicated before there is strong empirical evidence now to suggest that that cave is one of the last, or few remaining sites, where modern man as we know actually came from.  As I have indicated before, I think it has great marketing potential because if people of European extraction want to find their roots they will have to come to KwaZulu-Natal.

The second phase of the iron age which is also very, very exciting and it has enormous potential to market.  Essentially the early iron age people who lived roughly from the birth of Christ to about a thousand years ago, most of these people lived on the coast and in the valley bottoms.  Then about a thousand years ago there was a major cultural upheaval which took place in this Province, where the people moved out of the valley bottoms and moved into the hills and began not to live in villages but in isolated homesteads.

That is an incredible history, which dates back a thousand years.  It has enormous fascination to foreigners and I also think it is something which we need to teach our own people about and it has incredible potential and no other Province can actually match us.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has got two minutes left.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I would then just conclude by speaking, if you will forgive me, as a member of IPTSC.  While we in the IPTSC are grateful to the Government for having allocated R9 million which is a very, very big improvement, but as I have indicated in this House before, that R9 million has now enabled the IPTSC to really build up an incredible management team and a highly competent and professional management team, but we are now in a situation where we do not have the tools to actually utilise that management that we have built up.

I would really urge, not only this House, but particularly the Cabinet to try and ensure that the IPTSC could be given those tools and as those who serve in the Economics Portfolio Committee know, the IPTSC has undertaken to raise from its own fund raising activities an amount of R5 million, which leaves essentially on a very realistic budget a shortfall of R8,7 million, which would enable the Province not only to engage in the sort of developmental tourism that we want but more specifically to target international tourism where we have I think a competitive advantage.

So in conclusion, Mr Chairman, I would really urge Cabinet and this House to seriously consider the request from the IPTSC to make a further R8,7 million available, so that we can really develop tourism in the Province.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker is the hon Mrs Galea to address the House for five minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  I will be speaking on vote 15, the RDP.  The closure of the RDP offices by the Central Government and the devolution of the implementation of the RDP objectives to individual departments, created the impression that the RDP had moved down as a priority.  Thus many people asked what this RDP stands for.  People said, "Ridiculous dreams and policy", and so on.

From what some of the previous speakers have said already, we just have not delivered and this is very sad.  The RDP fund was established with savings from the rationalisation of functions within the Government, the sale of strategic reserves and money from overseas sources.

Emphasis will still fall on infrastructure and on co-operation between the public and private sector.  To my knowledge, the RDP is based on the following:

1.	An integrated and sustainable programme.
2.	A people-driven process.
3.	Peace and security for all.
4.	Nation building.
5.	Promoting the link between reconstruction and development.
6.	Democratisation of South Africa.

My question to the Minister is what is the format to access RDP funds?  I think this is one of the greatest problems.  When I ask colleagues how we can access it nobody seems to know.

I would ask the hon member, the Director General or relevant departments please to circulate the format guide or some sort of business plan to all hon members, so we know exactly how to access it and how to make use of this tool, which is available for uplifting people.

As I mentioned in my debate on the 6th, that to assist our people re-establish themselves, any assistance should be distributed on an equitable basis in all areas.

When travelling and talking to people in the rural areas, I have seen women and children walking for miles (saying "miles" gives my age away) to get to a borehole.  There are so many unemployed people, many homes need to be rebuilt.  These people need skills and development and capacity building for various projects within that community.

We as parliamentarians must be seen to be helping the people in KwaZulu-Natal.  I know of other colleagues who have been supplying materials for sewing groups, knitting and all sorts of projects in these communities.  We have our own RDOP which means "reaching deep into our own pockets".

In the Minister's report we read that the overall delivery of the RDP has been slow due to limited capacity, bureaucratic procedures, lack of clear decision making etcetera.  This is of concern.  We must be seen to be utilising these funds as soon as possible, so we can help those people.  They are in such great need and they need business skills, to help them once we can get projects going.  Many plans look good on paper but actually to put them in action does not work.  So perhaps that whole way of distributing funds should be revisited.

Let us ensure that the R100 million for the KwaZulu-Natal peace initiatives will bring peace and stability to our Province.  The National Party is committed to the reconstruction and development of South Africa in order to empower disadvantaged communities, to promote the optimum economic growth and to create job opportunities.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you.  And to develop every citizen to his or her full potential and the promotion of equal opportunities for all citizens.

It just concerned me that in part of the speech, I cannot actually find it, was that we had to still get the full staff compliment to actually initiate some of the RDP projects.  I feel this should be treated as a priority.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We shall now have the hon Dr Luthuli for 12 minutes.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman and the hon House.  I would like to make some remarks regarding what was said by the hon member Mr Bartlett.  I agree with a lot of what he said but I would like to point out that one of the problems we have as a Province, and which we cannot overlook is that we are not where we should be particularly in the area of tourism.

We can talk about crime and all the other things and the Ministry not doing what it should be doing quickly enough.  But we should all remember that people who get preoccupied with violence after winning their independence or whatever you want to call it, will be left behind when it comes to matters of development.  Particularly in an area like tourism.  Tourism and things like that are bound to suffer.  Never mind the other things, all development suffers.  So we should bear that in mind.

I do remember that this side of the House did point that out long ago, the year before last and the other year, that one of the things we should stop doing is fighting in this Province, because overall it is going to put us back and we will not be able to catch up quickly enough.  We will go further, we will put the blame on somebody else.  We will find a scapegoat and not realise that it is our own doing.

Thanks to our Minister here, Minister Zuma, and thanks to our former Premier of the Province for having steered us from the brink of calamity.  We are well on the way now when we should really say, "No more of that, we look forward".

Now I just want to say that it has become very apparent that one of the problems that the Ministry of Economic Affairs and Tourism is faced with, is money.  Very little money is put into the Ministry to do what it is supposed to do.  All the previous speakers have emphasised that.  I would emphasise and say that it is something that needs to be looked into and something needs to be done about it.

We say time and again that tourism is our number one winning ticket and that we say again and again and we do not put money into it.  I do not think that can be overemphasised.  Something needs to be done in that regard.  Money should go into tourism and then we can begin to create the jobs that we want, we can begin to get the tourists enjoying our Province which has everything that the tourists want to see in this world.

I would like to say to the Minister of Economic Affairs, that he should go through his Cabinet or whoever is there, and say that this Parliament says that they must give him money.

I have to focus on parastatals.  The Minister has given us all that perhaps needs to be known about the working of the parastatals.  I will emphasise that the biggest parastatal is the KFC, KwaZulu Finance Corporation.

It takes 60% of the budget, it goes straight to the KFC and that is an amount of about R66 652 000.  It goes towards social economic development, which really is a most important area and we require considering the background from where we come.  So a lot of responsibility is placed on the KFC.

It is to assist Government to attain its objectives 
-	to assist the lower income groups or the disadvantaged communities to move on.
-	To be able to raise loans and subsidies.  We all know how difficult it is for any black person to go to a bank and raise a loan.

I want to recall my own personal experience when I returned from exile.  I went to the First National Bank to try and raise a loan to start functioning privately as a doctor.  I was asked for all sorts of guarantees which I did not have.  They wanted to have a house, property, money in the bank, the very money that you have come to ask for.  [LAUGHTER]

In the end I wanted to cry.  I looked at the manager and thought what is wrong with this man, but the point of it all is that I left without anything, no help and I am a professional.  So you can just imagine how difficult it is for our people to raise these loans.

I know they often come to my place of work asking, "Where can I get a loan?  Where can I raise money?  I want to do this, I want to do that".  So in fact I still think that even though the KFC is there, and I think it works through the Itala Bank, it is supposed to reach people through Itala Bank for instance.  I just think that something is wrong somewhere.  Not enough people are getting the assistance that they should be getting or maybe even to know where they should be going.  So we need to do something in that regard.

I will make some general remarks regarding the parastatals.  They were created under the previous Government with two things in mind.

1.	To perpetuate an ideology which was a bad ideology to put it mildly and,

2.	to advance their political objectives.  We all know what those political objectives were.  They were directed at a particular sector of this community and those are the people we talk of now, when we say that they are disadvantaged.

Yet again when we look at the KFC, I know that it has gone some distance towards restructuring and we have been at that one as the Economic Affairs Portfolio for the past years.  I think they have gone some way in restructuring and seeing to it that they have got the people with the right vision and the right mind, and who knows where they should be going, in the right places.

I still think that a lot of effort needs to be put in placing in the very top positions in these parastatals, the people who have fought a long time in this country to bring it to where it is, and therefore they know where it should be going.

What I am saying there is that affirmative action still has a place in many of the parastatals, including the KFC.  What has happened is you get changes at lower levels but surely we are more than midway.  We have gone more than midway through the term of Government.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

DR A N LUTHULI:  We should have a way of speeding up training our people to get to top positions.

I want to talk about the KwaZulu Transport.  The same remarks I made on the KFC apply to this parastatal.  It was created under ~apartheid~ to service ~apartheid~ objectives, to ferry people from their places of residence which were invariably far from their workplaces where the umlungu lived or owned a business.  Ferry children to school and poor people to shopping centres, which were also very far from where they lived.  They ran and still run on bad roads.  I am talking about the buses, the KwaZulu Motor Transport.  They run on bad roads and so the cost of replacement and maintenance is high.  The distances travelled by the commuters are long so they cannot afford the daily costs.

For all the above reasons Government subsidisation has always been a necessity.  That is what is meant by the high cost of ~apartheid~.

No matter where you look, the minibuses then came in and worsened the situation, where KZT was already running at a loss.  The minibuses took the lucrative routes and could also decide to stop where the routes became bad.

Since we came to Government, KwaZulu Transport has been a huge problem with loss of money requiring subsidisation.  Rationalisation was necessary such as selling of some assets, those making losses.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

DR A N LUTHULI:   Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I find it a very great honour to follow after the daughter of one of our great sons of our country.

I am very strengthened and encouraged by what hon Dr Luthuli has stated about levelling the playing fields, removing the gaps between haves and have nots.  I attended the international cricket match at Kingsmead to carry out a survey.

I put my binoculars onto every business box and sitting next to me was an editor of a newspaper and said let us have a competition.  Find a black face in those boxes.  Some of those firms are getting the most lucrative jobs, contracts from our Government and National Government because on those occasions they send a black person to negotiate.  In reality in those cricket boxes you could not find a single black person.


We must never be misled by window dressing.  ~Apartheid~ collapsed in 1994, but~apartheid~ is likened to the atomic bomb that was dropped over Hiroshima in 1945, the effects of which still hurts people today.  So that ~apartheid~ is there.  We have to transform people.

I make a plea to the hon Minister of Economic Affairs.  Arising from the excellent workshop we had convened by the Ministry and our hon Premier on SMMEs.  Arising out of that workshop we had the excellent revision of our tender legislation.  Let the hon Minister table a promotion of the SMME Bill.

We require that.  This afternoon we are going to have the vote of the Transport Ministry where the real implementation of SMME is taking place.  I want to make a plea, let us transform the bureaucrats in our Government.  Let us transform the bureaucrats in municipalities where industrial sites are lying vacant in our municipal areas.  In Durban for 20 years, when the officials in this era were demanding R400 000, half a million Rand for sites that are really worth R10 000.

Two months ago small business people within the Durban Municipal area won awards for their product.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  International awards for their products in France and in Mauritius.  Do you know where the factories were, in outbuildings.  Manufacturing from outbuildings when glaring across the street land is lying vacant for 20 years and they want half a million Rand.

I want to make a simple plea today.  The saviour of this Province, the future of this Province, putting right the wrongs of the past, will be to level the playing fields.  Let us take this SMME programme, let us table draft legislation and write into every office or the walls of every official in our Province, promote small, medium and micro enterprises.  That is going to give our Province the power.

As far as image building is concerned, we talk of car hijacking.  The worst hijacking of cars in the world is not in South Africa.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the member's time is over.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I thank you, Mr Chairman.  But in a state of the United States but those newspapers and those MPs are loyal to their country.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call upon the hon Dr Jiyane to address us for ten minutes.

DR Z B JIYANE:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am pleased to talk on this very important topic, perhaps the most important topic of Government, that is the matter of the economy.

I always think about the time when I studied for eight years in the United States of America.  I learnt that the biggest depression they had in the 1930s, was because they had about 23% to 25% unemployment and because of that depression everything in Government was reintegrated and focused on the goal of rescuing the economy by providing jobs to Americans.

Now America is the super power that it is today, it is still based on the economic fundamentals that were put in place in that time.  I look at South Africa.  We want to be a competitor up to the next century.  We have more than 40% unemployment at this time.

I ask myself, do we have economic policies and political policies that really treat this as an emergency situation.  I think in a large measure we do try, but I do not think we have done enough.

For example, when people talk about the country collapsing, crime in this country, people do not realise it because perhaps you have not been directly touched.  But when individuals, people in business, people in professions go to their garages and are killed by people who think life is really worthless due to their own circumstances, because they want to have a joy ride in their Mercedes or a BMW.  When you have situations where small businesses, that we need to promote, because I fully agree with the hon member who has just spoken, that that should be one of the plans of our Government.  That is to develop small, medium and micro businesses.  That is one of the ways out of this huge problem of unemployment in our country.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z B JIYANE:  I think that our Province needs to at least make a start if others have not.  I see three major ways that this is being addressed.  The biggest problem is unemployment from which all the other problems arise.

First, I fully commend the Minister for the economic expansion through the SDIs, that the Minister is championing, that is the special development initiatives, that will cause the economy to expand.  As it expands, obviously, there will be more job opportunities plus the goal of the GEAR which is a 6% growth may perhaps begin to realise.

There is also a second method of providing employment, which is championed through the Ministry of Public Works, which other Ministries should actually be doing.  That is seeing to it that more projects are labour intensive projects, which provide jobs, especially in the rural areas.

Thirdly, I think most importantly, countries like Malaysia adopted this method, which is called affirmative action or promotion of previously disadvantaged communities, vigorously.  Therein lies one of our biggest weapons to relieve ourselves from the circumstance that we find ourselves in.

I reported last time that on one of my visits, official visits internationally, I was in Taiwan, one of the countries that has 100% employment and in fact has about 1% short of labour, they recruit labour from outside.  I asked what it was that caused them to move from where they used to be.  We used to joke about the Chinese people eating people because of the starvation they had for a long time during the wars, but now they have some of the best economies in the world.

The lesson I got there was that in all the big corporations that I went to, there was a common answer, you have to develop small and medium enterprises.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z B JIYANE:  Now you see, if we think that the big industrial corporations and Government will provide enough jobs for this 40% unemployment we have, today, which causes so much crime and other problems, we are joking.

The solution lies in, particularly, the huge majority of black people that have been excluded from developing.  If you teach them the skill to become entrepreneurs you are providing jobs to ten or more people already.  That is the only solution that we have.  If we treat this problem of unemployment as a serious and huge problem, which it is, because crime is going to cause this country to collapse and we might as well forget about 6% growth in such a competitive environment as we have in the world today.

Which brings me to the next question.  If we want 6% growth in our country and resolve the crises that we face and compete effectively in the world, I wonder why we are still doing things as if were doing business as usual?

We have training colleges that are producing thousands of teachers.  Less than 20 will get a job very soon.  We spend Government resources instead of investing in education to be in tune with our economic needs.  We still do things as if matters were just as usual.  We will not compete with the world if we do not invest in skills and the training of our people.

That is the name of the game now.  It is not countries that have huge mines with gold and other resources that dominate the economies of the world, it is countries that are dominant in hitech technology.  That means the people are the biggest resource of the country.  That means education and training must be designed so that it fits into the economy and creates strong countries, countries like Germany.

You go to universities there.  You are attached to a factory.  You are being educated in something that will be practical.  We are spending millions in our universities.  If you ask what do we do with these BAs that are produced there or the diplomas that are produced there, when we do not even have enough money, there is no satisfactory answer.  We are doing business as if things were normal and yet this country is going to collapse.  With 40% unemployment you cannot make it in this competitive world.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z B JIYANE:  I think the Minister of Economic Affairs should be applauded, as well as the Premier, for the vision they have about the need to make the economy of KwaZulu-Natal be what it should be.

I also think that whatever they do, we now need to integrate all the Ministries and face this as the priority of the Government, because when people have a problem, not only about where to sleep but even about what to eat, people begin to behave like animals.

We see the levels of crimes.  Not one of us is safe, if we do not address this problem as the number one priority and as I say, crucial in all the efforts that we undertake.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

DR Z B JIYANE:  Crucial in all the efforts that we take is that we must develop entrepreneurial skills for the people that have not had a chance for such a long time.

It is in that light that I think I congratulate the Premier and the Minister concerned with the recent meeting at the Expo, where they brought in many business persons from small and medium sized enterprises.  Where they introduced the idea of the Tender Board Act, which we have just passed, which is an instrument of the Government to decisively intervene and say now we mean business.  No one is going to continue with his or her large business corporation, without showing Government that they are doing something about developing small and medium sized corporations because that is the solution for this economy.

It was the solution in Taiwan, in Singapore and in all the countries that have succeeded in the world.  Why should it not be the solution for South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z B JIYANE:  Lastly, Mr Chairman, I think that it is quite laudable that we have this R100 million for peace.  I would just urge that it is proper to reward individuals, although I do not know how we will reward the many individuals in the rural areas whose houses were burnt and who had no title.  I think there is going to be a lot of administrative problems.

Even though we think we will help people with housing, which sometimes may really be helping banks which owned some of the houses that were burnt, we should also be thinking about rewarding communities by building schools.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the hon member's time is up.

DR Z B JIYANE:   If you donate a school to help people construct furniture you are making a much more valuable contribution than when you are helping one individual by making a public investment in skills and training.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call upon the hon Mrs Downs to address us for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  May I just take a short amount of time to commend the previous speaker, the hon member Dr Jiyane for an excellent speech.  I thoroughly agree with him.

I am afraid that I am going to take a very sombre note and I would like to just say to the hon Minister Mr Zuma, that I think he is whistling in the dark because as long as we have a situation where towns like Richmond are controlled by gangsters, we will not have economic growth, we will not have tourism and we will not have development.

I would like to say that unfortunately I do not think that this is being taken seriously enough by this House.  I think that what we are doing here today is that we are fiddling while Richmond is burning.

Like the Nero of old his fiddling cost him his downfall.  I would like to just say that we need to be very aware of that today.

I would like to take one minute of my speaking time, starting from now, and ask this House to have a minute's silence in remembrance of all of those people that have been brutally gunned down since the trouble began in this Province.

Thank you.  I hope that has caused a sombre reflection.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We thank you, Mrs Downs.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Naicker to address us for five minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  It is a privilege to follow the last speaker Mrs Downs.

Yesterday the hon Mr Xaba, he literally sang, "Development, development, development" and I know it comes from his heart.  Today to hear the hon Dr Luthuli simply say let us stop fighting.  It is a question of co-ordination between development and to stop the fighting.

I must compliment the hon Mr Hamilton, I do not see him in the House, for the statistics that he has provided to this Parliament, with regards to the instability and the resultant crime which automatically links to the overall development which we are faced with.

Having said that, more than a hundred countries around the world signed the Copenhagen Declaration on social development, committing themselves to development programmes of action for enhancing social development and ensuring human wellbeing for all throughout the world.  The White Paper at that stage reiterated the policy of guidelines of the RDP, namely that development approaches be followed.

As much as I compliment the hon Minister, realism and honesty dictates that these issues should never ever be politicised because we are dealing with the needs of people.

Coming back to the other issues, sadly I may repeat thirdly even to this day approximately 80% of our schools do not even have drinking water, but on our tables we have beautiful reports.

How do we reconcile that one particular issue with our conscience?  Therefore one of the greatest benefits which can be created by the expenditure of the RDP funds commences with involvement of the communities.  It involves the creation of appropriate committees, for example a roads committee, a water committee to identify the area and its priority.

This gives the opportunity to obtain training in administration.  It gives the community the opportunity to indicate the type of projects required and the method by which the operation can be maintained.  This can then mean obtaining training for people in the construction, labour control, wage payments, training people in maintenance of the facility etcetera.

At this stage, I want to compliment the hon Dr Jiyane.  He made notes but he did not speak, but his heart spoke about the factual situation on the ground.  About the situation of unemployment.  Who are those that are unemployed?  It is the silent masses of our country irrespective of colour, cast or creed.  They are the ones.

So in that respect the one concern that places a dark cloud on the horizon is the possibility that labour movements will insist on trade union rates for the labour force.  It is a self-protection system for the labour movement to protect ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member has one minute left.

MR S V NAICKER:  The effect of such exercises will not help the exercise and in view of the constraint on time, I just want to quote the report present here before us by the Minister which is not perhaps pleasing.  On page 8:

	The delay in establishing RDP structures in the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism due to unforeseen circumstances have made it virtually impossible to manage the activities of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.  The last special meeting of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee was held on 11 September 1996.

Through you, sir, I want to plead to the Minister.  The hon Minister of Housing in this House made a statement about crocodile bureaucracy and that is the mechanism and that is the machinery that this Legislature must put right.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the member's time is over.

MR S V NAICKER:  It is you and I that stand up to face the responsibility of the country.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We shall now have the hon Mr Mohlomi address the House for 14 minutes.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to address myself to the issue of the Regional Economic Forum which is about to be restructured, and it is going to be called the KwaZulu-Natal Regional Economic Council.

I think the establishment of this body, and our relationship with it has caused a lot of problems in the past.  To a large extent because people did not understand what it was and where it came from.

It is for that reason that I would like to give a very brief background of the REF so that we know where it comes from and what role we think it should play in our Province.

The REF I would say is also a product of struggle.  It was a product of the struggle of the labour movement, which started in 1988 when the old National Party Government wanted to amend the Labour Relations Act of 1988.

We know that there was a big struggle by labour then because labour felt that the Labour Relations Amendment Act of 1988 had actually taken away some of its rights that it had won over many years.

One of the central demands of labour at that time was that there should be an end to unilateral decision making by both Government and business.  Those of you who used to watch Mr Naidoo, as the general secretary of COSATU at the time, he nearly became Mr Unilateral Decision Making because whenever he appeared on TV he would say, "We do not want this unilateral decision making.  We do not want this unilateral decision making by business and Government".

Finally the Government of the National Party succumbed to the pressure of the labour movement and other organs of civil society at the time and a number of fora were established, one of which was the National Economic Forum at a National level.  There was the Housing Forum, there was the Electrification Forum and all these forums sprang up immediately after those struggles.

So that is why I am saying that we owe tribute to labour for the establishment of this National Economic Forum which has been succeeded by NEDLAC today, National Economic Development and Labour Council.

Things did not end there because at a National level it was decided that provinces or regions as we called them should establish their own economic fora.  We were one of the leading regions to establish the Regional Economic Forum and in the Western Cape I remember they had the Westgro.  They called it the Westgro.

I am happy that this forum has come to be recognised officially by this Provincial Government.  I would think that we are the only Province in the country that has a forum of this nature, because I know that in the Western Cape Westgro collapsed.  In the Eastern Cape they tried to establish a similar forum, it also collapsed and in other provinces.

We should pride ourselves of the fact that we are the only province in the country that has a forum of this nature, which brings together so many stakeholders.

Of course initially things were not very easy.  I remember the first meeting that we held with the Durban Regional Chamber of Business before it was called the Durban Regional Chamber of Business, with Mr Alec Erwin, the Minister of Trade and Industry, myself and other people who were involved in that meeting.

There was so much suspicion.  People were seeing us as labour, as people that were trying to take away the decision making powers of business or decision making powers of Government.  The same applied when we started dealing with the old Natal Provincial Administration and the old KwaZulu Government.

I remember one meeting that we held at Mayville, I think at the S Bourquin Building in which the old KwaZulu Government was represented by the late Mr Sithebe.  There was so much wrangling and fighting and so on, because people were not very clear about what this Regional Economic Forum was that labour was proposing.

Of course finally reason prevailed and we did launch the Regional Economic Forum a few years ago, which was addressed by our Premier Baba Nyanda who was there as one of the main speakers at the launch of that forum.  That was a major victory.

I am doing this because some people have treated the Regional Economic Forum as some Communist ploy.  I remember an hon member of this House, he is no longer with us now, Dr Dave Durham, some of the questions that he used to raise in our Portfolio Committee, bordered on saying that this was just a Communist ploy to take away economic policy making from Government to this particular forum.  I think that was because of ignorance as to where this forum comes from.  He is not here with us now but he was going to benefit out of this brief history of this economic forum.

So I am saying that this forum really has been able to bring about a lot of co-operation and a lot of stakeholders such as labour, business, Government, community based organisations, civic organisations, the parastatals are represented, the NGOs which are service organisations are represented, consultants and everybody is represented in one way or the other in this Regional Economic Forum.

So it is one of the most important bodies that we have as the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  That is why I am saying that I am happy that we have given recognition to it by making it a statutory body, instead of it being some nebulous body existing somewhere that nobody can really explain.

I think there are many advantages to us maintaining and funding this forum because it makes it possible for instance to ensure the broadest possible consultation which will ensure unity and action.  We know that most of the problems of the past and which are still with us now are caused by lack of consultation.

In fact if you go to companies, you go everywhere, you will find that a lot of problems arise out of the fact that people cannot communicate.  People do not talk to each other, they do not understand each other's point of view on many issues.

So I am saying that this is an important forum because it will ensure that people do talk to each other, they consult.  You know what business thinks about this particular matter, you know what the Government thinks about this particular matter and so on.  I also believe that unity is not really formed and negotiated behind black pulpits but it is formed in practice, in action.

I also believe that this forum can ensure co-ordination not only of economic policy but between various departments, as I also believe strongly that there should be a co-ordinated approach to development in this Province.  The Health Department cannot do its own thing alone, neither can the Education Department do its own thing alone, or the Transport Department alone.

A good example will be on the area of tourism.  You cannot think of promoting tourism without co-operation between the Transport Department and Economic Affairs, because once a tourist lands at La Mercy Airport - after the hon member Mr Hamilton has built it - once a tourist lands there he will have to be transported.  He will have to be transported on a proper road.  He has to be accommodated in proper accommodation and so on.  These things are interlinked.  I believe that the different task forces of the Regional Economic Forum will play a very, very important role in ensuring that there is co-operation and co-ordination of development between various departments.

Again another important thing which addresses a lot of our problems, especially with labour, will be the area of co-determination.  I think it is the view of the present National Government that instead of encouraging the adversarial approach between labour and business or between labour and employers, we should instead be encouraging co-determination or what is called joint problem solving.  I know it is a new term in South Africa because we are 30 years behind the rest of the world, when it comes to some of these things especially labour relations and human resources.  We are 30 years behind the rest of the world.

The fact of the matter is that co-determination is one issue or one thing that has brought about stability, economic stability in most of the countries because labour, business and Government sit down and talk.

If you look at the most successful or most stable countries such as the Scandinavian countries, you will find that there is a very high degree of consultation and co-determination between labour and their governments.  That is why you do not find a lot of strikes and so on and so on.

Of course people believe that labour has to be responsible, but I think as I made an example about labour and business as being two blades of the same scissors, business too has a responsibility.  I am still very much involved with labour.  Whenever there are seminars they invite me to make inputs and tell them what we are doing in this Provincial Government.

The things that you pick up from workers there are things like managers say if you have a demand they say go to Mandela.  Mandela will give you what you want.  Do not talk to us.  You still find that sort of attitude among some of the employers of this country.

What I am saying is that we need a change of heart, not only from business, not only from labour, we need a responsible attitude not only from labour, but even from business as well or even from us as Government of the Province and the National Government.

Co-determination I think is one of the things that will solve our problems in this country when it comes to labour stability and economic prosperity.  Of course it cannot succeed unless there is trust as well.  There must be trust that has developed between the employers and the employees and of course, you cannot negotiate trust and say let us sit down and talk about trust.  Okay now we trust each other, we shake hands and we go.

There has to be commitment to that approach that will decide things jointly.  There will be co-determination, there will be joint problem solving.  You must be committed to it firstly, and of course there must be transparency.

I cannot say I trust you if I do not know what your agenda is.  If you have a hidden agenda, you come to me and say no let us talk about this and that, as long as I believe that there is a hidden agenda I will never really trust you.  So there must be transparency as well.

That I believe can be ensured by a body like the REF, the Regional Economic Forum because at least there each component of our society comes with its programme.  It is able to motivate it, it is able to support its motivation, it is able to argue its position and if its position is defeated obviously it will have to accept the positions of others.

Once again we say we are going to legislate or make the REF a statutory body, I would really caution against us as Government now being seen to be embarking on other initiatives which are outside of this forum.

I would like to make an example of the workshop which was convened by the hon Premier Dr Mdlalose who invited Clem Sunter.  It nearly cost a hell of an uproar, especially in the ranks of labour, because there was no explanation as to where this initiative came from.

Of course after things were explained I think people understood that no, this thing was not really being convened to undermine the initiatives of the Regional Economic Forum.  I think we should be cautioned against coming up with some initiatives which may be seen as competing or providing an alternative to the decisions of the REF because the REF has actually worked out a programme, the growth and development strategy for this Province.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  So any initiative that will not involve input from other stakeholders will always be viewed with suspicion.

A lot of members have said a lot about the SMMEs.  I believe that is one area that is closest to my heart because I believe that the liberation of us black people here will not be complete until we have a role to play in the economy.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Firstly, the promotion of these SMMEs will create jobs.  I think the hon Mr Rajbansi has explained that and the hon member Dr Jiyane explained exactly what we mean by job creation.  I just want to touch on what we need to do in order to promote that.

The most important thing is training.  There has to be a lot of co-operation between the Department of Education and Culture and the Department of Economic Affairs in giving our people business management skills, technical skills and science.

We know that we have been denied those skills - especially business management skills - for many years by simply not providing it in our schools.

Again we have to restructure the funding institutions.  Financial institutions have to change their policies in such a way that they allow people to have access to funding, even if they do not have the necessary securities and so on that are normally demanded.

We also have to create an appropriate environment.  We have to provide an infrastructure where people can conduct their businesses from.  We need to regulate those industries.  A good example is the taxi industry.  Look at the chaos there is in the taxi industry now.  The taxi industry is one of the most powerful industries which is owned predominantly by black people but look at the chaos that is there because there is no regulation of that industry.

I commend the Minister of Transport for his efforts in trying to restructure the taxi industry.  I think he is leading the whole country in his attempts to do that.

Of course we need to also look at the empowerment of women.  I am happy that the Minister mentioned that he is beginning to pay attention to rural women as well.  Those people have got a lot of skills, a lot of knowledge.  They are survivors if you consider the conditions under which they live.  If you can empower those people and give them the necessary infrastructure ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the hon member's time is over.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. I will now call upon the hon Miss Barrett to address us for 15 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are you going to talk about housing?

MISS B BARRETT:  No.  Mr Chairman, hon members.  South Africa has emerged from years of economic isolation, imposed on this country as the world's retributive response to the National Party Government era of ~apartheid~ rule.

We are now in the fortunate position, however, where most of the international trade barriers, as part of the sanctions and disinvestment campaign against South Africa, have been lifted.  In turn, South Africa has responded by partially removing protective barriers on certain manufactured imports, particularly automobiles and textiles, which serves as a clear signpost to future trade policy formulation.  It appears that South Africa is now set to embrace the rigours of global competition, at least from a policy perspective!

AN HON MEMBER:  What about shoes?

MISS B BARRETT:  What are the implications for South African business?  Although the previous programme of import substitution was intended to make the country self-sufficient and less dependent on mineral exports, all it did was nurture inefficient industries behind high tariff barriers.

Has South African business woken up from this lethargy?  On the part of business, productivity is well below its accepted international standards.  South African goods are out-priced by global competitors, and business pays lip service to the concept of customer service and customer care.  Compounding this complacency in business, is an economy staggering from one crisis to the next, with ad hoc work stoppages, a rising tide of crime, growing unemployment and an escalating threat posed by the unfair dumping of impossibly priced foreign goods.

This is a reality that KwaZulu-Natal faces, especially being the coastal Province looking out towards the Pacific Rim.  There is an urgent need to develop a survival mechanism to deal with the onslaught of free international trade.  I believe that business in KwaZulu-Natal does have the potential to do so - and we in this Legislature can play a part.

Our first task would be to vehemently oppose certain provisions in the draft a national 'Basic Conditions of Employment Bill, 1997'.  Before moving to this Bill I would like to read an extract from the Introduction to "A simple guide to the New labour Law" which refers to the Labour Relations Act of 1995.

	The new Act came into existence after considerable negotiations between the interested parties ie management, labour and the State.  Many compromises were made during the negotiations, and the new Act can truly be described as the first real democratic Labour Law in South Africa, reflecting the wishes and interests of all the relevant parties.

It furthermore states that:

	Since the election of a democratic government in South Africa there has been vigorous debate about the development of the economy in order to increase employment and redistribute wealth.  Much of this debate has focused on industrial relations and its role in improving our international performance. One product of this has been the new Labour Relations Act.  

	If this, as stated, was the purpose for adopting revised labour legislation, why are we today presented with a draft Bill passed by Cabinet last month which proposes the following.  Due to the time constraints I will read from the summary of provisions of the Bill.  

Clause 7.1:

	Overtime may only be worked by agreement.  An employee may not work more than three hours overtime in a day or ten hours overtime in a week.

Clause 7.2:

	Overtime work must be compensated by paying the employee at 1.5 (one and a half) times the employee's normal wage or, if agreed, by granting the employee a period of paid time off equivalent to the value of the overtime pay.

Clause 9:

	A collective agreement may permit the hours of work of an employee to be averaged over a period of up to four months.  The average time worked over the agreed period must not exceed 45 ordinary hours and five hours overtime per week.

Clause 12.1:

	An employee must have a daily rest period of at least 12 hours between ending work and starting work the following day.

Clause 12.2:

	Every employee must have a rest period of at least 36 consecutive hours each week.  The rest period must include a Sunday, unless otherwise agreed.  An employee may agree to have a longer rest period (60 hours) every two weeks.

This is a mockery of the concept of South Africa ever becoming globally competitive.  The Draft Bill only serves to create further rigidity in the labour market, as well as increasing the costs of employment.  I do not for one moment support the adoption of inhumane work conditions for our labour force, but nor are we in a position to condone mass labour action which has led to wages spiralling out of all proportion to labour productivity.  Nor should we condone this most recent attempt to hold business further to ransom with a shorter working week and a slash in overtime hours permitted.  Business will respond in one of two ways:  They will close down shop - or mechanise, both to the detriment of future job employment.  

If we are serious about addressing the economic ills of this country, compromises will need to be made on both sides, labour and business.  Simultaneously, there is a need for fundamental restructuring of our economic management structure to be more cost effective, efficient and responsive to market fluctuations.  It is doubtful whether South Africa could ever compete in the global price war because of our high industrial wages, ten times higher than those of China and four times higher than those of Kenya.  The future survival of the manufacturing sector would then depend on new standards of quality, reliability and innovation.  Why look and perform the same as every similar competitive product?  Let us make our products differently, better, faster, more reliable, longer lasting and more user-friendly.  And make sure consumers are aware of these quality changes.

Training is another area of great concern.  Last week the hon member, Mr Danie Schutte, referred to the large scale closure of factories in the footwear industry in KwaZulu-Natal - the heart of footwear manufacturing in the country.  This was the very topic of my master's dissertation, but I concluded that many of the problems experienced by this industry could be overcome with the development of a coherent industrial policy that focuses on the optimal utilisation of resources available to manufacturers, and a much greater commitment to human resource development and more effective work organisation.

Despite the fact that KwaZulu-Natal is the centre of footwear manufacturing in South Africa, there is not one dedicated training centre in this Province to accommodate the training needs of new factory workers and managers.  We need to acknowledge that the manufacturing sector can no longer sustain any further demands for wage hikes and shorter work hours, but that the quality and well-being of our workforce could still be significantly improved with real investment in human resource development, with full institutional State support for a coherent education and training system which focuses on adult basic education and skill acquisition.

It is time both Government and business weigh up the costs of supporting the training needs of the Province, if our economy intends to survive and prosper in the long term.  I would look forward to seeing RDP funds spent in this regard.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member, for saving us time.  On the advice of the Whips, we shall continue beyond 1 o'clock, in order to finish the debate.  I will therefore ask the Minister of Economic Affairs to respond.  Over to you.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Chairperson.  I will certainly be very short.  I will save you more time I think.  This morning, I did speak to the Legislature for a long time.  Our colleagues here have spoken as well.  A lot of wise words have been spoken here on a very complex matter of the economy from almost every other angle.  I do not think it will be fair to the House to keep you longer than you have been.

Of course, before just underlining some of the things that have been said, it would not be fair to the House to allow my colleague and friend George to go unattended to when he talks about talking, talking, talking.  I think he is the one recorded speaker here, the longest of them all in this House.

He says one could just present a report and people will read it.  So what is the reason of coming here and to talk on the reports.  We could have done so and sent it to the offices and not come to Parliament.  I do not think we should overstretch our political hand to that degree.

I think you are saying we need to be accountable, we need to say exactly what we are doing, that is what we are doing, and you are complaining too we should not do it.  I do not know what you want because members of this House want Ministers to come and account and when we account, do not account.  I do not understand.

I think also it would be unfair not to attend to my friend Nel about time, complaining about time.  My understanding is that both the IFP and the ANC actually give a lot of time to smaller parties.  I must say it is no use complaining here because you have got to talk to the voters to increase your time so that your proportional time is more.  [LAUGHTER]  Do not talk to us.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  A point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman, does the hon Minister know that Minister Valli Moosa does not agree with this.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is not a point of order, Mr Chairman.  I am sorry.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point taken.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Chair, I must say I have listened with very great intents to what hon members have said.  I think beginning with the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, who actually indicated that the reporting about our Province at times is not in keeping with the real facts.  I do not think he was saying there is no crime here, we do not have problems.  I think the point he was making was that the manner in which it is done, we are always projected as the worst province of them all and he was merely saying if people are keen to be reporting why do they not do it in accordance with the facts as it were.

It is a fair point and it is important for us to be aware of that, and probably for our media as well, to know that if they are to criticise the Province it has to be balanced.  It was further emphasised by the hon member Konigkramer.

I am sure we will all agree that nobody can disagree with the fact that the media is a powerful instrument.  It can paint you black or white.  It can influence the minds of people and I think that is why my colleagues were making the point, that therefore in terms of what happens in the Province let us balance things.  I thought it was important to underline those matters that were raised.

I also noted comments about the RDP by various speakers.  I am not going to be mentioning names on what were critical comments.  Some comments I thought were almost painting a picture as if nothing is happening.  Again whilst we say to the media that they should balance their criticisms, members too should balance their own comments because to say the RDP has been a total failure is perhaps somebody who is not walking around the whole Province.

Certainly we have not done enough, but there has been things that have taken place and people have appreciated what the RDP has done.  We should balance it to say yes, the pace has been slow and we are not delivering but we notice that something has been done.

If we say it has been just a total failure, it is in a shambles, again I think is really overplaying their political hand.  There are people that we interface with who are very grateful of what the RDP has done in other localities, not everywhere.  I do not think anyone has said you would solve the problems of ~apartheid~ for so many years overnight.  I think where there has been a clear recognition that you cannot, you need time to deal with these matters.

At times it worries me that criticisms tend to come more from those who destroyed this country for many years.  They took more than 40 years to destroy the country and they expect us in three years time to put it right.  To be a first class country.

I think it is again overplaying the hand if they are allowed to do so.  I think we should indicate that.  They actually should be less vocal about these matters because they have been part of the problem.  I do not think they should continue being a problem.

I take the point that in the RDP area there have been a lot of problems.  We have acknowledged that in our report and certainly have taken note of the criticisms.  We will take to heart everything that has been said here, broadly speaking.

I would also like to say on the issues that were raised on the parastatals, particularly the KFC and the KZT.  I would want to say that I know that the KFC as an institution, people have got mixed feelings about it.  It is because it has been the institution that was able to reach places where other institutions could not reach.

Other institutions cannot be criticised because they never went to where people are, the poorest of the poor.  I think our criticism should again be measured in that context.  The KFC has been very much responsible in trying to get where we are.  You could argue that perhaps it was in a different dispensation etcetera, but I think there has been recognition that in fact we are trying to align ourselves as that institution to the new dispensation.  Thus we are saying we are transforming the KFC.

I get worried at times if the criticisms do not take that into account.  Just here yesterday somebody was saying to me we do not have a bank at Ngoje.  All the banks do not want to come.  There is a small little town Loskop.  Losberg sorry, why do I say Loskop.  They are pleading that Itala should come because no other bank is ready to go there.

I think we should take all of that into account in the debates at National level in line with the national change of these parastatals.  We have argued that there is an experience in place that could not be ignored.  How do you handle these matters?  It is in that context that in fact we have tried here to say what is happening with the allocation, the share capital that we have given in so far as beginning to deal with the issues probably focusing more.

I think what we should be saying, we should be encouraging, that the arm of the KFC in particular that deals with the poor, the SMMEs and everybody, should be sharpened and strengthened.  We should be saying what do we do to really be in keeping with the current situation.  So I would want that the criticism that we make of the KFC should take all of that into consideration.

Of course the issue of the KZT.  People are aware that decisions were taken to deal with that.  I reflected it in my report and we hope we could deal with it in such a way that it is a kind of a co-operation that is self-sufficient.  I must say, as I said initially, having taken those clever decisions, rationalise, retrench you have got side effects that people are not able to travel because the buses are no longer there.  How do you deal with that?

We have been saying, we therefore need the private sector to come around to participate, and probably see how we deal with those routes and those problems which are created by us trying to put ourselves in line with what is happening today.

I am also aware that there were comments and questions that were posed, which in due course we will be able to clarify and also if they are put in Parliament as people said they wanted to put specific questions that we could deal with so that we do not take the time.

What I want to say is that the area that has been emphasised by so many speakers of the SMMEs, I cannot agree more that we need to put more effort into that.  It is my concern that if you looked at the structure of the economy of this country you actually want to cry, because it is so structured that for many years to come we will still be the ones who are at the bottom of the ladder in terms of the economy, particularly the blacks and particularly the Africans.

You can be here in Pietermaritzburg now and take a few kilometres drive to the townships.  You are in two worlds.  How do we bring that in line?  There is a huge task facing all of us.  You cannot tackle it by trying to broaden the economic base.  The concentration therefore that you are making on the SDIs and the corridors etc, it is but one attempt to try to deal with this issue.

I would want all of us to work together and I want to take the point that was made that all departments should collaborate and work together in an attempt to deal with these matters.  I think that is most critical and most important.

I believe that with that kind of joint effort, we could make our Province indeed a leading Province.  I would want to believe that given all the constraints and everything, we have tried our level best to make this Province economically move as far as we could.  I believe we have the potential, we have the commitment and we have, I think, the political will to do so.

Mr Chairperson, at this point I would like to thank all the participants who contributed here.  I think your contributions have been noted and they have been invaluable.  We will take them to heart and try to ensure that we put them through our system so that they will help us to improve our departmental work.  We would like to thank everyone for supporting our vote.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  This brings us to the close of our debate on Economic Affairs and Tourism.  We shall now adjourn for lunch and come back at quarter past two on the dot.  Thank you very much.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 13:07
	RESUMED AT 14:20

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  When we adjourned for lunch the House was in committee stage.  We now resume the sitting in order to allow a party that needed to table a motion to do so.  I now give that opportunity.  Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of Mr Danie Schutte, I would like to give notice of the following motion:

	THAT Parliament discusses the worsening crime situation and considers urgent measures to effectively combat the crime wave and bring back normality to South Africa and KwaZulu-Natal.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I have no problem with the content of that motion but I do have a problem about the order of the day, and I move that the order of the day be adjusted in such a manner as to accommodate that motion being placed on the Order Paper, because the time for motions have passed.  We should actually suspend the order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have moved, Mr Rajbansi.  Can I get a seconder.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Yes, Mr Chairman.  We will second that.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for that, Mr Rajbansi.  Therefore the motion is tabled and it will be on the Order Paper for the business of tomorrow.  I thank the House.  That concludes the business of this sitting and again we transform the House into Committee stage to continue with the debate on the votes.  The House stands adjourned and is transformed into a Committee.  I will ask the Deputy Chair of Committees to take over.  Thank you.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  MR T S MOHLOMI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR.

RESUMED DEBATE: KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 12: DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now convert to a Committee of Supply and it gives me pleasure to call upon the hon the Minister of Transport to give his address.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson, hon members, members of the media, the stakeholders of the transport fraternity who I see have come in full force.  It gives me great pleasure to present the 1997/98 budget vote for the Department of Transport, KwaZulu-Natal.

In 1996/97 this Department received a budget of R612 million, and in 1997/98 we have a budget of 597,8 million.  This has, however, been boosted by an additional R100 million allocated by Cabinet.  Our critical objectives for the new financial year include:

Community Access Roads
The need to speed up delivery to neglected areas and to ensure capacity building, training and job creation.

Public Transport
The need to combine bus and taxi successes into one public transport programme that balances economic viability with commuter needs.

Road Safety
The need to speed up road safety implementation with a capital investment into Project Victoria equipment and infrastructure following Cabinet's allocation of R25 million for road safety.

Rationalisation
The need to rationalise and right-size the Department structure to ensure appropriate human resources are directed to the areas of greatest need.

Citizens Charter
The need to spread customer orientation through communication and training.

In addressing these issues the Department of Transport needs to resolve a number of constraints:

Staff Issues
Our staff structure is in flux due to severance packages.

Financial Constraints
Despite our addition R100 million, our budget is inadequate for maintenance, public transport, road safety and service delivery programmes.

Institutional Mechanisms
We need to formulate legislation that is appropriate to the new responsibility of the Department of Transport and to structure the staff establishment of the Department to face the challenges that lie ahead.

It is fair to say that 97/98 is a watershed year for the Department of Transport.  However, it is with confidence that I say that we have the leadership, the commitment and the vision to meet the demands of the new financial year.

1996/97 OVERVIEW

The new financial year follows in the footsteps of a highly successful year for the Department of Transport.

Legislation
Solid progress was made in developing legislation for roads and transport and we are almost ready to table our enabling Bill.

Project Victoria
Three of the four phases of the KZN Road Safety Project, that is Project Victoria, were completed.  An assessment report on the programme was completed and a business plan for funding was drawn up.

Taxis
The Taxi Task Team made considerable headway in bringing unity to the taxi industry.  A Taxi Investor Conference was held in April 1997.

Buses
The issue of economic viability and subsidies were workshopped with the bus industry at a bus summit in March this year.

Citizens Charter
The Department's Public Service Delivery programme was implemented with the initial successes in the Motor Licensing Bureau.

Community Access Roads
The Community Access Roads Needs Study was completed.  Transport Forums were established to involve communities in prioritising road development.  Over 3 000 job opportunities were created through labour intensive community access roads programmes.

Staff Structure
Miss Jenny Gray has been appointed as the new Secretary for Transport.  She is the first woman to hold this position in the Province.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  She will start with the Department in June.  Performance agreements have been initiated for all managers in line with the Citizens Charter.

Personalised Numberplates
Personalised numberplates and new colour combinations for vehicle registration plates were introduced in the Province.

FOCUS ON DELIVERY

Our achievements in 96/97 result from a focus on delivery that is in line with the Citizens Charter programme.  It is our intention to build actively on these programmes in the new financial year.  Today I will touch on a number of programmes pursued by our Department.  For more information I refer you to the annexures on this report.

Community Access Roads
16 months ago the Department of Transport called over 500 people to a Summit on Roads for Rural Development.  This summit was attended by 22 ~Amakhosi~, by NGOs, by CBOs, women's organisations, professional bodies and the like.  It was the Department's first conference aimed at popular consultation on rural road development.

At this summit we reported how we had increased our rural road budget allocation from 3,8 million in 94/95 to 8 million in 95/96 and how we had then redistributed the 20 million made available from local authority allocations to increase this figure to 28 million.

We reported that to effectively spend our money we had initiated a Community Access Roads Needs Study to ascertain the precise backlog of road development in rural areas.  We called on those present to assist us in organising Rural Road Transport Forums, democratic structures that could assist in determining where priority spending was needed.  We suggested that these forums observe the tribal authority areas to ensure that they were inclusive and we divided the Province into 29 Transport Forum regions where ~Amakhosi~, business people, women's groups, youth groups, farmers etcetera were all represented.  We have now established 27 inclusive Rural Road Transport Forums.  Details are in annexure C.

We could not delay development until the Needs Study was completed.  We told our conference of our parallel short term implementation programme, targeting high density public transport routes.  We promised to inform rural communities of our progress once the Needs Study was completed.

In 1996 the Department of Transport concentrated its energies on desktop and field top studies for the Community Access Roads Needs Study.  It also lobbied for further funding from RDP, JSB and Public Works.  In 1996 8,6 million additional funding was received.

-	The RDP provided 1,7 million for roads in Vulindlela, 2 million for Nongoma/Mahlabathini and 1,7 for Msinga.
-	The JSB provided 1,2 million for Vulindlela
-	Public Works provided R2 million for roads in Hlabisa.

By the end of last year our community Access Roads Needs Study was finally completed.  For resource poor rural people, this document was a triumph of democracy.  For the first time ever as a Government Department we had quantified the actual extent of our road backlog in rural areas.  For the first time rural communities had been given a voice.  They had made input into prioritising road development.  For the first time scientific research had been combined with social analysis.  We could say with authority that the rural road backlog was 11 421 kilometres.

I urge members to read this document very carefully.  It is an excellent piece of research and social analysis.

When we analysed the data contained in the report we found that 46% of the roads identified served schools, 18% served clinics and 13% served both clinics and schools.  Over 3 000 kilometres served communities of over 2 000 people.  To construct these high density routes alone will cost R280 million.  To access community schools and clinics will require R272 million.  We estimated that given the necessary funds we could make considerable headway with these priorities over a period of four years.

With the advent of the 97/98 financial year, it became obvious that our R25 million budget for Community Access Roads was totally inadequate for the work that had to be done.  We asked ourselves how best to raise money for this programme.

Our first option was raising the licence fees by 25% and dedicating the anticipated revenue of R45 million to Community Access Roads.  Our second option was to sell personalised numberplates and pass the profits to Community Access Roads.  Our third of course will be the introduction of roadside advertising as soon as we are satisfied that that will actually bring in money.

While it was obvious to us that personalised numberplates will attract those individuals who wished to express themselves on the road, we also realised that we could offer these plates as a reward for civic-minded citizens who wished to contribute to delivery of infrastructure to neglected communities.  We would position them as an act of saying, "I may have only a little, but there are many others with less", knowing that each contribution of R1 500 goes directly to providing roads for rural development.

We took these ideas to Cabinet and they agreed that we dedicate the increased licence revenue and our personalised numberplates profits to Community Access Roads for the next three years.  They went further than that and added an extra R55 million to this allocating us R100 million fund for Community Access Roads for three years.

It is therefore from a position of strength that we will be calling a Report back Summit on Thursday, 22 May 1997 for roads for rural development.  We will report to rural communities that we have grown from R3 million to R100 million.  We will show them our priority programmes in which funds will be spent proportionately to need in each of the transport forum areas.  We will get consensus to move forward in the delivery of access roads.

Our Rural Roads Report back Summit will be an important step in getting final community consensus on our priority roads.  Our aim for 97/98 will be to allocate our R100 million to bringing access to approximately 400 schools/creches and to approximately 100 clinics.  We aim to spend one-tenth of this budget on approximately 30 bridges and structures through our new Bridge Building Initiative, BBI, which we will introduce at the summit.

The Bridge Building Initiative aims to provide simple, easy to construct, cost efficient and effective structures in terms of our needs study report.  This initiative has been started because we realise that the most urgent access that communities require, access across rivers that separate homes from clinics, schools, pension pay-out points and the like.  We will invite university and technikon students to take part in membership programmes through the BBI, allowing them hands-on experience through this programme.

Just briefly on that, for those hon members who have not travelled throughout the breadth of this Province, there are areas where in order to cross every day to school, you have got to cross rivers and change clothes.  It is actually a shameful thing that most schoolboys will know each day what colour of panty their mistress is wearing, because she will hitch up her skirts every time she crosses a river.  [LAUGHTER]  We want to stop this.  For the sake of decency we want to stop this and we will be initiating this footbridge programme to make sure, at least, that people cross no matter what weather and in whatever without the boys peeping.

Emerging Contractors
In September last year the Department of Transport held an Emerging Contractor's Conference to assist emerging businesses in accessing transport work.  This conference was one of the first in the Province.  This year we will invite emerging contractors to the May 1997 rural roads and Rural Development Summit to help them access work resulting from our additional community Access Roads Funds.

The Department of Transport will make use of the Accreditation Scheme for Emerging Contractors when choosing its emerging partner in the new financial year.  This scheme accredits emerging contractors with five levels of competency and issues them with certificates accordingly.  Obviously non-accredited contractors will also be considered but the Department will encourage all emerging contractors to obtain accreditation.  We believe that this will assist emerging contractors in gaining work and in building partnerships with big business.

Public Transport : Taxis
The taxi industry in KwaZulu-Natal has taken a giant step forward in 1996 and has made a number of watershed agreements regarding unity and regulation.  Throughout the country it is acknowledged that KwaZulu-Natal taxi industry is on the verge of a silent revolution that will radically alter the way the business world interacts with public transport in this Province.

The past year has seen a painstaking process in the taxi industry leading up to this victory.  It has been very unfortunate that this process has been blighted by taxi violence.  In the Department of Transport and as every lady in the House will know, to every birth its blood.  Just as the day is darkest before dawn, so the taxi industry faces its most gruesome moments just before its new nativity.  This is because there are disruptive elements set on reprisal who have nothing to gain from the birth of the new and prosperous taxi industry.

In recent months the Department of Transport has held regional meetings with taxi owners throughout the Province.  They have agreed with us that the recent violence is the work of desperadoes who are divorced from the mainstream of the taxi process.

From all corners of the Province, taxi owners have assured us that they are committed to a taxi industry where:

-	routes are allocated fairly and are not fought over
-	violence is stamped out and the institutional mechanisms are put in place to apprehend any perpetrators within an hour of any violent action
-	and shady elements threatening to tarnish the reputation of the industry are exposed.

Having made a pact for peace and unity, the taxi industry can now be seen as one unit.  This unit has over 20 000 taxis spending R2,2 million on petrol every day, R6 million on services every three months, R45 million on tyres every year.

The taxi industry took the message of its collective strength to a highly successful Taxi Investor Conference that was held in Durban last month.  Big business was well represented at the conference through banks, insurance companies and vehicle spares companies.

The taxi industry is using it to consolidated might to arrange favourable fuel deals and insurance deals and to negotiate land ownership.  It is centralising its bargaining and purchasing power and forming taxi co-operatives in Durban North, Durban South, Empangeni, Mkuze, Newcastle, Ladysmith, Pietermaritzburg, Kokstad, Port Shepstone, Stanger, Vryheid and Mahlabathini/Ulundi.

Taxi co-op members are being drawn from all registered taxi associations within each of the 12 geographical areas.  A membership contribution of R100 has been agreed to and each co-op will elect a board of directors that include accountants, lawyers and the like.  Each co-op will then use the land deals being negotiated by the taxi industry to form a taxi city made up of a service centre and an operational centre.

At this stage the 12 taxi co-ops will elect a central board of trustees that will look after property development and management, marketing, repair and service partnerships and franchise/retail partnerships.

The initiative is the basis of a Section 21 company that has already been registered as the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Development Company.  The Board of Trustees will consist of 60% taxi industry and 40% professionals drawn from these various fields.

It is this process of unity and economic advancement that comprises the silent revolution in the taxi industry that I mentioned earlier.  I applaud the provincial taxi task team for their successes in bringing the taxi industry to this point.

Indeed the taxi industry will be the only centres in any town or city where black people can say, "That is what is owned by us".

Buses
Parallel to the taxi process, the Department of Transport has been hard at work in addressing the issues that have arisen in the bus industry following the devolution of the bus subsidies in April.  1996/97 has seen questions raised about economic viability, welfare and scholar concessions, urban/rural dynamics, SMME's empowerment, inter-modalism and land use.

In February 1997 the Department of Transport hosted a Bus Summit where big, small, urban and rural representatives met to workshop these issues while working towards a common vision for public transport in the Province.  The workshop agreed that a bus task team be formed to work with the Department in finalising a Bus Policy as part of the Public Transport Policy that is being drawn up at present.

The task team is in the process of being elected and will meet later this month.  It is believed that the Bus Task Team's findings will assist the Department in finalising the policies and structures it needs to manage its new bus transport competencies.

The Department of Transport is committed to a public transport vision that sees the appropriate use of transport mode as the basis for affordable transport fares and industry profitability.  In the short term, the Department of Transport will issue interim contracts to present subsidiary beneficiaries.  In the medium term, as we critically assess the financial difficulties facing bus companies against their planning and resource management principles, we will look at increasing the economic viability of bus transport.  Tendered contracts will be issued to subsidise those routes alone that cannot prosper financially.

In the long term, the Department of Transport is committed to a multi-faceted public transport industry that balances a sound profit basis with commuter needs.

Road Safety
Our Road Traffic Inspectorate has continued its meteoric rise in driving road safety in the Province.  Since 1995, there has been a 30% decrease in road fatalities.  This is attributed to the enhanced campaign we initiated against drunken driving, and our enhanced communications campaign.  Drunken driving also includes drunken walking.  [LAUGHTER]

1997 has been identified as the year where we move from theory to action with the implementation of our Road Traffic Safety Project, Project Victoria.  In 97/98 we have our first dedicated road safety budget of R25 million.  This is part of the special Cabinet allocation of R100 million and will be used to establish a Special Operations Group for Road Safety in the Province.

As a part of this project, the Department will be purchasing up to ten operational "Booze Buses" that will travel the length and breadth of the Province doing drunk driving raids and targeting road safety related offences.  In establishing this force, the R25 million for road safety will be spent on five fully equipped 4X4 vehicles, one communications vehicle, the "booze buses", 30 alcometers, 15 laser speed timers, 15 video cameras, ten dragar alco-check devices, 30 portable radios, ten pursuit vehicles, 30 permanent speed checking cable sites and on an initial road safety communication campaign.

Because of Project Victoria's emphasis on combining enforcement with communication, the KwaZulu-Natal Road Traffic Safety Steering Committee has formed a special communication sub-committee to look at advertising programmes and the further funding of communication campaigns.

With an initial budget of R25 million, Project Victoria has been given a much needed capital injection.  A fulltime project manager will be appointed to the project to manage this funding and to canvass for further funding this financial year.  We have drafted the Business Plan for this project and we have met with the Treasury to work out how money raised for road safety can be channelled into the project.  In your package you have got this business plan.

If financial year 1997 has been selected for the road safety delivery, then financial year 1996 certainly laid the foundations for this important project.  Earlier this year the Road Traffic Inspectorate turned the spotlight onto fraudulent driver licences acknowledging that untrained drivers pose one of the greatest dangers on our roads.

In order to make learner's licences fraud-free, RTI is investigating the use of touch screen computerised licence tests that offer a choice between typed and oral questions.  A sample of this technology is available in the foyer for you to see today.

The issue of driver's licences fraud was tackled at a Summit for Driving School Instructors earlier this year, where a frank discussion was held with driving school representatives from across the Province.  At the summit the driving schools decided that they have a moral obligation to ensure that learner drivers that passed through their hands acquired their licences legitimately.  A code of conduct was drawn up by the task team representing the summit members.  This code of conduct is backed by disciplinary procedures and will act to regulate driving schools throughout the Province.

To launch financial year 1997's commitment to road safety delivery, the Department of Transport has declared the month of August Siyabakhumbula month in the Province.  We remember them.

Over a period of four weeks, the Province will hold a commemoration service and share the grief of those who have lost loved ones through road crashes.  We acknowledge that people from several religious convictions believe that fatal crashes tend to occur on the same spots and that death draws more death to itself.  We will hold memorial services at high frequency crash zones in an attempt to secure peace for both those who have died and those who have been left behind.

It is my sincere hope that the Siyabakhumbula month will help change the acceptance that crashes and their consequences are beyond human intervention.  It is my hope that this project will encourage people to be actively accountable for their own safety on the road.

I can confidently say that following Siyabakhumbula month our communication campaign, the acquisition of our new equipment and our intensified enforcement programmes, we believe that drivers in KwaZulu-Natal will know the consequences of drunk driving by the time I report for budget 98/99.  Speedsters will be aware that their behaviour will not be tolerated on our roads.  Unlicensed and illegal drivers will have been made aware of the consequences they face and a new culture of road safety will begin to develop in this Province.


TRANSLATION:  If perhaps we talk about people who have been left on the road, I remember the month in which they left us.  Perhaps it would be remembered that according to Zulu Tradition, according to Hindu Tradition, and according to Islam there is this thing of bringing the person back.  It is referred to as bringing the person back that is what we will be doing, his Excellency is laughing.  T/E

Even in our Christian culture, particularly those who are Catholic and Anglican will know, that I think in November they have got the All Souls Day.  So this is what we will be doing.  We will identify areas of many crashes and in those areas perhaps we will erect a cross there, a cross according to Christian religion or a symbol according to Hindu or Islam or QwaShembe or Isyoni and it is that we will be targeting mostly the victims, those who have been left behind.  So we hope this will be a successful month, but we will work at co-ordinating with the various departments and stakeholders.

Our Road Traffic Inspectorate has again excelled in its service to the public.  Yet, by now all hon members should be aware of the terrible salary dispensation set at National level for our traffic officers.  I would like to extend my deepest thanks to every member of the Road Traffic Inspectorate for the sterling work done this last financial year.  I would like to offer my assurances that I will continue to raise the salary issue with National Government until RTI packages are improved.

Next year of course we will be celebrating 60 years of the formation of the establishment of the Road Traffic Inspectorate, one of the most successful in the country.

Economic Corridors
The Department of Transport has committed itself to working with National Government, Swaziland and Mozambique in the Lubombo spatial development initiative.  The focus of this project is to leverage private sector investment with limited public sector investments to bring sustainable economic growth and job creation to Northern KwaZulu-Natal, one of the poorest regions in South Africa.

The Department of Transport will contribute to the provision of a surfaced road that will be known as the Maputoland-Maputo Route or S58.  The road is just less than 160 kilometres and follows the existing road alignment 414S and MR 476 which are both surfaced roads.  Thereafter it follows the gravel road D448 to the Mzinene River.  Here it follows a new alignment to Lower Mkuze.

From Lower Mkuze it will follow the existing gravel road 466S, ZM 468 and ZM 466 up to Phelendaba where the road is surfaced up to KwaNgwanase.  Then it follows the existing gravel road to the Mozambique border.  By aligning the route along existing roads we have lessened ecological damage in the area.

The new road will ensure all weather access to communities who at present are cut off from access during these wet seasons.  The route brings an estimated 60% of these communities within five kilometres of reliable all weather access.  It will serve as the main arterial for a network of secondary roads.

The total estimated cost for the construction of the road is R180 million.  The Department of State Expenditure will provide R55 million through the Lubombo SDI for the road.  Additional funding is being sought from the Province, the Municipal Infrastructure Programme and donor monies.  I am sure Mr Peter Miller is going to assist here.  [LAUGHTER]

The Department of Transport is committed to ensuring community involvement in the decision making process around this road.  The rural road transport forums must participate in this project and skills transfer and SMME training must form a significant part of our investment into this programme.

With this project we are looking at feeder road requirements.  These include roads linking the Makhathini with a high quality surfaced road in Hluhluwe or Mkuze depending on the airport upgrade, the re-opening of the upgrading of MacMac Pass to link Swaziland to agricultural and tourist developments within Ubombo/Ingwavuma.  These feeder roads will be prioritised as the agricultural and tourism projects take off.

For the benefits of this road construction to be maximised, the Department of Home Affairs is being requested to finalise decisions regarding the specific location and the nature of a border post at the Mozambique border.

Municipal infrastructure programme funds are being sought for the provision of municipal services such as sewerage and waste management to emerging local authorities in order to avoid urban blight along the road.  The provision of public infrastructure at eManguzi, Mbazwana and Hluhluwe also require attention.

The business plan for the road is almost complete and it is envisaged that construction will begin later this year.

PMT - Provincial Motor Transport
Provincial Motor Transport has remained problematic with both staff issues and the issue of vehicle abuse and repair fraud tarnishing the otherwise good reputation of the Department.

Regarding vehicle repair fraud, the Department of Transport has achieved excellent results in 97/98 and has already seen a number of merchants prosecuted for fraud.  We will continue to root out those businesses who either overcharge for work done, charge for poorly repaired vehicles or charge for repairs that have not been executed at all.

The Department of Transport has hired the services of Deloitte and Touche and Manase and Associates to assess the functions of the PMT.  They have provided us with a report on their findings from their extensive investigation into the control, management and administration of provincial motor transport.  The executive summary of this report has been tabled for your further scrutiny.  It is our intention to pursue these recommendations in the new financial year.  These recommendations involve:

-	The decentralisation of the day to day fleet management function, including loss control to user departments, with PMT providing technical and management support, rendering inspectorate and audit functions, the procurement and disposal of vehicles and management of SMME development.
-	The possible closure and re-engineering of PMT administered fuel and tyre depots and the workshop functions of Government garages.
-	Calling for tenders for the services of external fleet management service providers, to cost effectively manage the provincial vehicle fleet, taking its age, the distribution of vehicles and vehicle use into consideration.  Emphasis will be placed on streamlining repair and fuel authorisation procedures and on human resource development.
-	The accommodation of SMMEs.

We have also called on professionals to assist with the change management and conflict resolution and with control procedures in PMT.  Both of these processes have seen high levels of success.  We want to express thanks of the firm of Gasa and Associates who are conducting this very well.

The path we have trodden with PMT has not been an easy one.  The high level of fraud, the prohibitive costs of running and maintaining a vehicle fleet and the staff tensions in the component have conspired to complicate issues even further.  However, 96/97 saw much groundwork done in finding sustainable solutions to PMT's problems and with implementation set to begin, I am confident that 97/98 will see the final resolution of these issues.

Motor Licensing Bureau
Motor Licensing remains the greatest revenue earner in KwaZulu-Natal with an estimated R160 million earned through motor licensing fees in 96/97.  MLB staff members have proved a great commitment to public service delivery programmes over the last 12 months.  I am sure you will all discover this as you pay your 25% increased motor licence fee this year.  With the options of paying via the post, by cheque, by credit card or on Saturdays at some MLB offices or at our postal agencies, this task is no longer burdensome for members of the public who overall have supported our call in increase licence fees to pay for the development of rural roads.

Hon members, that concludes my input on our programmes in the Department of Transport aimed at ensuring delivery to the people we serve.  I am very proud of the achievement of the Department of Transport in 96/97.  I am confident that we will meet our many promises in 97/98.  My heartfelt thanks go to all staff of the Department of Transport for a year of excellent work and I want to especially thank the retiring Secretary of the Department, Mr Marais, who has been a very steady force in the Department.

Before I come to the end of this report, I would like to briefly talk about: 
- 	what we are doing to ensure that we have the capacity to continue to deliver services to the people of KwaZulu-Natal 
-	and how we are pulling in partners from all spectrums of society.

Three years into the new dispensation, DOT is committed to ensuring that it has the institutional capacity it needs to sustain the delivery of its programmes.  Whether we are talking about road safety, taxi initiatives, transport planning, community access roads, we are committed to ensuring that we have the necessary structure in place to implement our programmes and to assess their impact in relation to popular needs.

To ensure institutional capacity, the Department of Transport has prepared new legislation and is ensuring institutional reform through a number of important structures.

-	Rural Road Transport Forums, Annexure C
-	Taxi industry has seen the formation of the Taxi Task Team, Taxi Office and a registrar and two assessors
-	A ProvCom and a ProvTech structure is being finalised with the first transport meeting of second and third tier Government expected to occur in June and Representative of Local Road Transportation are in the process of being constituted.
-	The management structure of Project Victoria is being finalised and will fall within the ProvCom structure.

1997/98 will see five pieces of legislation being tabled in Parliament.

-	The enabling legislation
-	The translation of the Provincial Road Traffic Bill
-	The Provincial Roads Bill
-	The Land Transport Bill
-	Taxi legislation

I am aware that institutional reform is key to sustainable delivery and to ensuring that popular needs and political vision are translated into clear programmes and policies.

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT PARTNERSHIPS

In the last three years the Department of Transport has realised considerable success resulting from partnerships it has forged internationally and with the private sector, industry and other Government structures within the country.

-	The taxi process has seen many achievements because of the partnership formed between the Department, Local Government and the taxi industry in the Taxi Task Team.
-	Our strong links with the Australian state of Victoria have proved invaluable in developing our own road safety project.  Phase one and two of Project Victoria were jointly funded by the Australian funding agency, AUSAID, and by the National Department of Transport and partnerships are now being formed with the private sector to raise a portion of the R90 million needed for the implementation of this project.
-	Road construction and maintenance programmes have benefitted from our partnerships with both the Rural Road Transport Forums, which were critical in assisting us in identifying our priorities, with the private sector.  The Department has started providing low cost black top roads in partnership with local farmers and holiday resorts, a development that we will pursue in the new year.

The Department of Transport acknowledges the importance of partnerships for successful co-operative Government.  In 1997/98 we will look to the private sector while we develop in-house skills and expertise and will be embarking on intensive training programmes to encourage the acquisition of expertise and multi-skilling in our personnel.

Bus industry partners will be brought on board in the formation of a Bus Task Team.  The establishment of ProvCom and ProvTech structures similar to MINCOM and COLTO, that is Committee for Land Transport Officials, will formalise partnerships with third tier Government.  We will be co-ordinating that with the Department of Local Government and Housing.

BUDGET

With the additional 97/98 allocation for Community Access Roads, much of the heartache has been taken out of the task of prioritising the budget of the Department of Transport.  However, despite the significant capital injection we have received for community access roads, the Department of Transport is still hard pressed to meet its other commitments in terms of roads and transport.

With the new transportation functions that have been devolved to provinces, there are concerns about the future funding of public transport.  By 98/99 the Department of Transport will need to find R220 million for Bus subsidies, R8 million for urban transport, one million for transport planning, one million for Local Road Transportation Boards and two million for Road Safety Education.

The Department of Transport is also facing budgetary shortfalls for road maintenance programmes.  In the new financial year, the Department will embark on a Maintenance Needs Study along the lines of the CARNS report.  A planning board will be established to oversee the departmental process of allocating funds between functions and will include myself, members of the Portfolio Committee and senior officials from the Department.  The aim of this prioritisation system is to ensure flexibility, transparency and equity.

CONCLUSION

As the Department of Transport expands its services to meet its new priorities in public transport, road safety and community access roads, it faces the greatest challenge of its history.  More than half the present management structure and large numbers of supervisory staff in the Department are being lost through the severance programme.  Already the Department of Transport is setting up contingency plans to overcome these hazards.  In some areas, this will include major restructuring and we envisage using a much younger technical and professional team.

We will be preparing ourselves to go into partnership with the private sector to maintain our levels of service.  Both emerging contractors and emerging consultants will feature more prominently in the road and transport industry as we unbundle our services.  My Department is working hard to provide access to previously marginalised communities while still ensuring that the wheels of commerce and industry are kept turning.  We have already laid the foundations for the Department of Transport as it becomes an increasingly bigger player in the development field.  There is a strong commitment to service excellence and the Department of Transport is ready to deliver.

Just to refer you to the annexures there is an annexure here which is just an example of an agreement that will be signed between the Minister of Transport and the new Secretary of the Department who in turn will be signing contracts with other managers.

Annexure B, I think Mr Mthiyane in particular will like this very much because it tells you we are not scared.  I think Mr Tino Volker will notice that we are not scared to say what it is that we promised, what it is that we delivered and what are the next steps.  We are not scared of saying that at all, and Tino I think we will take notes.  [LAUGHTER]  It fills quite a large page of that and at the end there we then have an annexure on rural road transport forums, how they are formed and so forth.

Right at the end we have got the total spending of the National and Provincial Department of Transport in KwaZulu-Natal and I am sure Mr Lee will be happy to see that Eshowe does get a bit of money more than before, but there is still a lot to be done.

Mr Chair, I want to thank you very much for your indulgence.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I will now call upon the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Transport, hon Mr Motala.  You have 15 minutes.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I actually start saying what I want to say, I just looked around to see if I could find the Deputy Speaker but I do not see him.  I would like to pose a question to the MEC and ask him if he has also got a driver's licence from Eshowe or KwaNdebele for the Deputy Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

On a lighter note, I first of all want to say to the Minister, congratulations and compliment him on the report that he has presented to this Legislature.  I want to say to him that he has left nothing really for the people on the Portfolio Committee to say because he has covered, I think all the major points.  He has tried to cover most of the loopholes on which he would possibly be able to be questioned.

Having said that as well, I also want to thank the Premier and his Cabinet for having acceded to the Minister's request for the extra R100 million that came out from the special fund.  That is the fund that everybody has been talking about, except the DP, which talks about the slush fund.  It is not a slush fund, it is a special Premier's fund.  That is where it comes out of.  For that we want to say to the Premier and his Cabinet, thank you very much.

I am going to touch on a few points, because I believe my colleagues will touch on some of the other major points that they would like to cover.  I will just touch on the issue of roads, possibly, if I have enough time, on corruption and possibly on the human resource.

In so far as the roads situation is concerned, I want to start by saying that any local authority or any authority that is involved with the management of roads, is inevitably faced with the challenges of trying to balance the element of the system.  We all are aware that when anything that is being started, especially when there is a new development, the first thing that one looks at is the road infrastructure, because the road infrastructure is the most important, I believe in any province or in any country.  That is what brings you the revenue.

If you do not have a good road infrastructure you cannot get pupils to schools so they cannot be educated.  You cannot get people to hospitals to get them cured.  You cannot get people to get their food supply then there would be starvation.  So the most important thing is the roads infrastructure in our provinces and in our country.

Having said that, it is inevitably faced with the challenge of trying to balance the elements with the system, and these elements are the network that has to be maintained and the standards that we have got to set.  Most often the worst constraints that we have, is the budget constraint, which is not adequate.

When one starts making decisions as to where we should start with a policy and what should be done, are some of the elements that I would like to touch on which the Portfolio Committee with the Minister have always taken into account.  Whenever we have our meetings we have always had analysis put before us, we have always had allocation of funds where they were going to be used.  We also have had the estimating long term consequences, comparisons of standards, consideration of alternatives and various other issues have been discussed when it came to the situation of the analysis of the roads situation.

The other thing is the budgeted money that has to be distributed between various funds of the provincial roads authority and the appointment of the network as influenced by other needs.  What are these needs that we need to look at?  Some of them are, I will just outline and say it is capacity of improvement, provision of access.  Then you have the rehabilitation and we have some special allocations that we have to do.  Every one of these aspects has to compete for the limited funds that we have.

Then one has to say what are the results if the allocation has to be assessed in terms of long term outcome.  That is one on network condition, what is the user situation cost, what is the asset value that we have and do we have the ability to deliver, and what is the total transport costs.

What comes into mind, what one has to look at is the user cost.  The user cost, that is the operating vehicle cost.  Costs are inexplicably linked with the road network condition.  The wear and tear on transport is exacerbated alarmingly in relation to the deterioration of the road surfaces and the riding quality.

Vehicle durability is dependent on good roads network and impact greatly on the economy.  Based on research that has been given to us at our Portfolio Committee meetings and there has been a research done by the World Bank and the CSIR, where road user's cost has a function of road conditions and can be quantified.  These quantifications are, these costs include fuel, tyres, maintenance, labour.  Poorer roads result in a significant increase in user costs.  At the end of the day who pays the user cost?

The user cost has always been paid by the poorest of the poor because they have to travel long distances.  They get charged either by whether it is the road motor transport or whether it is the trains or whatever they use, and if the road conditions are not good they are the people that really pay the price.

Then we have to look at what is our asset value because all our roads that we have are an asset.  Any business or anything, as a Province I believe that we are a business as well and our assets, among others, is our roads and that is the most important asset that we have.

As I say, every provincial road network has an asset value.  Like any commodity, deterioration of the condition will cause a drop in the asset value.  The further it is allowed to deteriorate the more difficult it becomes to restore and the more costly that restoration will be.  Provincial revenue earners such as the tourist spots, holiday resorts, mining industry and business and as I said, the people on the ground will have to pay the price.  They will suffer if the asset value is allowed to decline as a result of inadequate maintenance springing from the only thing that I would say is from the lower budget allocation that we get.

The other important aspect that you must look at is the transport cost to a society, including both the costs of maintaining a road network and the cost of operating vehicles upon it.  If it is therefore included that the costs to build the Province and the community who are the road users total transport costs will escalate proportionate to the deterioration of the network condition.  Fuel costs, road freight costs for agricultural products or manufactured goods and carrying of raw material will increase due to the poor road quality.

It should be our objective to minimise road transport costs because at the end of the day, as I said, the hardest hit will be the poorest of the poor.  At the end of the day when that cost is added to the commodity the end user is the poorest of the poor who goes to the shop, buys a loaf of bread or buys a pocket of mealie meal or whatever it is, he has to pay for that additional cost because that is what has happened.

So one has to look at all the factors and analyse what has been applied.  The decision to be made is whether standards can be met notwithstanding the budget constraints.  In the unlikely event the necessary planned maintenance procedures can be implemented, almost invariably through the plan, though the plan does not come together and alternatives have to be considered.

Now what are some of the alternatives we have to look at?  The most important alternative I believe, is to motivate for  increased funds and that I believe the Minister should be able to do when he goes to MINMEC and goes to National Government and asks them for more funds so that we will be able to utilise those funds to maintain our assets again.  That is the most important one.

MR P M MILLER:  Leave my funds.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  No, we would not touch the housing funds.  [LAUGHTER]  The other thing one must look at and see, is it feasible to adjust the standards or do we adjust our network, or do we impose user charges.  User charges has come up a number of times at our Portfolio Committee meetings.  I am one of those who do not believe that user charges should be a strategy that we should look at.

One has to motivate for the increasing budget and that is undoubtedly the only true positive alternative.  It is essential to keep abreast of escalation to maintain the road network in its best possible condition.  Adequate funding must be procured from National Government for us.

Do we cut our standards?  Is that an option, one must ask ourselves?  I do not believe that is an option because it is negative if we have to cut our standards.  The same thing goes for network sizes.  One has to look back and say is that an option?  I do not believe that is an option at all.

So once again the opinion of all this that I have just said on the cutting of the standard, the adjustment network is negative.  There was a survey that was carried out and presented to our Committee, carried out to determine the ideal network size per province in South Africa.  What that survey showed was that KwaZulu-Natal is actually the Province worst off in terms of network size.  The deficit in comparison with the model is ideal and in 1996 the survey showed that there was some shortfall of 11 000 kilometres of its actual needs.

When I said we motivate for an increased budget and the other two, we do not look at and I do not believe that it is in line to say that we should cut our network size and our standards.

The only solution one would require is to ask the Minister to get our budget increased because everything else would be a compromise and not provide a holistic solution to the problem.  Although the Provincial Roads Department might reduce its responsibility, it also throws the onus on any other body, that is any other local authority or whoever.  We have to give our certain roads away to develop they would not be able to carry those responsibilities.

As I said earlier, that the user charge, I do not believe that the user charge is something that we should look at.  We have enough toll roads already on our national roads, and if we have to look at the other roads that we have, I do not believe it will be viable, neither to also set a levy on fuel, I do not believe it is a viable solution.

The only alternative is that the Minister should look at National with the Minister of Finance and see if he can squeeze it, make a little bit tighter and get more funds, as much as he can.

AN HON MEMBER:  We need more.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  We need more.  The Minister has adequately covered, as I said, in his budget speech as to what the current budget results and the consequences are and all has been spelt out.  So I believe that we should be able to support the Minister in his endeavours to get whatever we can in so far as the budget is concerned.

As I said, the available budget allocation for maintaining the roadwork in KwaZulu-Natal is not adequate and the needs must be addressed as a matter of urgency, in so far as the road issue is concerned.

As I said, if I had a bit of time, which I have, then I was going to talk about the issue of corruption.  On the issue of corruption I want to take issue with the Chairman of the Public Accounts the hon Mr Volker.

He has a tendency to say that his Committee is the Committee that has found all the corruption in the Provincial Government.

MR V A VOLKER:  When did I say that?

MR M S C M MOTALA:  That is the impression that he has created.

MR V A VOLKER:  When did I say that?

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Mr Chairman, that is the impression that the hon Mr Volker is conveying to the newspapers.

MR V A VOLKER:  Just for the sake of truth, when did I say that?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Mr Chairman, that is what he is conveying to the newspapers and I want to take issue with it very strongly on this subject.  I am just trying to look for the press article which is somewhere here on my desk.  This is what he says:

	MPP Mr Tino Volker, Chairman of the Committee, which has uncovered millions of Rand fraud and corruption in the Provincial Administration said he was waiting ...

MR V A VOLKER:  That portion is newspaper comment.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  That is what the newspaper says.

MR V A VOLKER:  But that is newspaper comment.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  The MPP, the hon Mr Volker has said.  That is what you said to the paper.  The paper quotes you, Mr Volker, with respect.  Why have you not corrected it?

MR V A VOLKER:  It does not take that in ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we have order.  Shall we have order.  Proceed.

MR V A VOLKER:  Get some intelligence between your ears.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  I want to remind the hon member that he was one of those that comes from the old regime.  He is one of those who was an MEC of that Department and has his employees, I call them his employees that are there.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has got two minutes left.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am not going to go on more with that.  I want to just say to the hon Mr Volker, that he must get his priorities right when he makes these kind of statements because when it comes to the Department of Transport, I want to say this publicly today, that the Minister, the Committee itself exposed the fraud.  Exposed that at its meetings and at every meeting these issues were discussed.  So Mr Volker must not go around trying to say that the Premier and Cabinet is incapable of running and looking after the funds of this Province and various issues.

On that note, Mr Chairman, I do not want to delay because I think I have just got another half a minute left.  I want to just say to the hon Mr Volker once more, that it is the doings of his previous regime that he comes from.  He should go to the TRC and go and expose himself and tell the TRC what they have done in so far as over-expenditures is concerned.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Chairman, could I just say that exposing himself will be a terrible sight.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order please.  You can have two minutes more.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, I just would like to ask the hon member whether it is parliamentary to ask another member to expose himself.  [LAUGHTER]

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Mr Chairman, it depends how he is going to expose himself.  You know, if he wants to expose himself in terms of what they have done in the past that is an exposure as well.  But if the hon member is talking about exposing oneself, if he is going either to the beach or somewhere or having to put on a bikini that is another story.  So I do not want to take issue with the hon member as well.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  May I now call upon the hon Mr Mtetwa.  You have 12 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!  No exposures now.

MR S N MTETWA:  Mr Chairperson, without any hesitation I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Department that he works for, for the report of this budget that he has just presented.

You know, to some people like ourselves it is very easy to talk on the budget that has been presented by, I will not say these kind of Ministers, but I would like to say the kind of budget.

I would like to say a very few words, if you will allow me, just to say the policy of the ~apartheid~ has moved our poor away from the job opportunities and access to amenities.  This has involved the workforce in enormous travel distances to their places of employment and commercial centres and thus with excessive cost.

The rural areas require more frequent public transport and improved facilities at affordable costs.  I was very happy when the report was given.  It touches many things about rural transport and rural roads.  All school children need transport but transport that goes on the road and also across the rivers.  We are very happy that the report also touches on the building of bridges.

Our old mothers and fathers, the pensioners, also need transport, hon Mr Mthiyane, when they go to collect their pensions.  We are happy that the Minister is talking about building roads for old mothers and fathers.  I see the hon Minister is jumping when I talk about pensioners.  [LAUGHTER]  He also has some work to do because we do not want our mothers and fathers to walk a very long distance to collect their pensions.  We want their monies to come nearer to them.  Nevertheless, I have said what I have said.

The history of South Africa tells us that South Africa has the worst record, especially when it comes to road safety.  We are happy to hear today how much work has been done by this Department to rectify what has been done before.

For all Public Transport Services to be fully integrated their functions must be co-ordinated and financed by one organisation which should be accountable to the people.  One will wonder what I am saying when I talk about that one.  I would like to remind every member that we have a Government policy which was of course established by some other people.  Today it is the Government people, that is the Reconstruction and Development Programme for all of us to follow.  It talks about those things.

I am very happy that the report that we got today also shows the mechanism of implementing that programme of the Government, which we have been talking about.

Nevertheless, I was very, very pleased when I heard the Minister report about the progress in the taxi industry in 1996.  He called it a watershed agreement regarding unity and regulations.  After so many years and so many lives of our people, especially in this taxi industry, have been lost.  So today we are getting this kind of report.

I am also pleased to know that in February this year, 1997, a Bus Summit was held where big, small, urban and rural representatives met to workshop on some issues, and came up with the agreement for the policy mechanism towards the bus policy.  When he mentioned that, I read his annexure B, page number 21 if I am not mistaken.  I was also touched to read that he also touches my area of work, of constituency and I wanted to say to the Minister and the Department, when you talk of the Putco company in Durban and surroundings, I think I must advise a little bit, keep close contact with the ground structures, especially in the areas of Ntuzuma, Inanda and Nqabeni.

AN HON MEMBER:  Ndaleni.

MR S N MTETWA:  There is no Putco bus at Ndaleni.  [LAUGHTER]  The happiest thing when I listened to the report from the Minister, it was when he mentioned the name of Jenny Gray.  I think that it should encourage all departments to do the same.  I mean of course this affirmative action we need to practice it, not to talk about it.

We have for a long time heard about what you have done, Mr Minister, in your Department when you discovered fraud which was in this Department, on Government vehicles and driver's licences.  We are happy to receive this report today.  I do not know whether it is slogan, but it says ~Siyabakhumbula~ and he explained a little bit what he means about 

TRANSLATION:  Indeed, I wish that I will be with those in August who will be remembering those brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers who died as result of road accidents.  If the Minister says today we must remember them, we remember them indeed.

I agree Mr Chairman, that we have come a long way and there is a lot that went wrong, but let me say, forward Manzankosi your speed is great you are going to different places, your getting rid of the gremlins in the Department.  Let it be a lesson to others because this causes me to say, it is clear and that it will become clear even to others that their vote, when they voted for you was not a vote lost.  Even in future it will not be a vote lost, those who threw away their votes will realise clearly that no! no!. [LAUGHTER]

I must say this because I was with the Minister at Ndondondwane where a bridge was being opened, and when they explained to us those who were there, they said they wandered around for an hour to get to the other side to their relatives.

It used to take a whole hour to wander around to get to the other side.  But when you made the decision what used to take one hour took one minute, that is indeed a job well done.  With those short words Mr Chairman, allow me to say forward Manzankosi and your Department, even those who are jealous will eventually see that, no, this is the way to work, thank you Mr Chairman. [LAUGHTER]  T/E.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The hon member has saved us two minutes.  Thank you very much.  The next speaker is the hon Mr Volker.  You have 12 minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, it was not my intention to have a minute's silence.  I was waiting for the others to keep quiet.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Chairman, I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in this debate and basically I wish to compliment the Minister on his initiatives and the efforts that he has taken.  Before doing so, just let me make one comment on road safety.

One of the most cowardly things that can be done for someone on the road is if he is involved in a hit and run accident.  Speaking about hit and run, I see the hon member Mr Motala has hit and run.  [LAUGHTER]  If he gets over his attitude, which I describe as cowardice, if it happens in a traffic accident, if he gets back before my time is over I intend dealing with him.  Possibly the IFP Whip can go and call him because I am looking forward to dealing with him.

MR N SINGH:  Mr Chairman, may I take half a minute of Mr Volker's time and offer an explanation for Mr Motala's absence.

MR V A VOLKER:  No, no, no.

MR N SINGH:  No, you do not want to know like the past.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that a question from the member or a point of order?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, it is parliamentary ethic if a member refers to another member, he at least stays in the chamber till the other member has had an opportunity to respond.  If the member knows nothing of parliamentary ethics then he has a lot to learn, in spite of his age.

MR N SINGH:  I will take a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us hear your point of order.

MR N SINGH:  Mr Chairman, Mr Motala's nephew was shot in Port Shepstone in a robbery a couple of hours ago and he has gone there.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are sorry about the sad news.

MR V A VOLKER:  We can deal with that in the debate tomorrow.  I would like to touch on various aspects that are of importance to this Portfolio.

First of all, the question of the Road Traffic Inspectorate and road safety.  I would like to take my hat off to the Road Traffic Inspectorate for the tremendous effort that they have put in.  I am very pleased that the Minister has been able to report that there has been since 1995 a reduction of 30% in road traffic fatalities in this Province.  It is a tremendous effort that the Road Traffic Inspectorate has put in.

Coupled to that, the salary structure, and the Minister has addressed that, the salary structure of Road Traffic Inspectorates in the Provincial Administration is considerably less than what local authorities pay to their traffic inspectors.  I think it is an absolute shame that the Public Service Commission at National level has for many, many years just not attended to this issue.

I believe that it is important that this matter be addressed because the salary structure on which these people are remunerated is an absolute scandal as far as the balance within the situation is concerned.

Linked to that we have the anomalous situation that in terms of an old arrangement, whether it is a legal requirement or just an arrangement, I do not know, that those fines which are raised as a result of the traffic inspectorate, are paid to the local authority area in which those offences occur, even if it is the officials of the Road Traffic Inspectorate.

Now until 29 June 1996, we had municipal urban local authorities.  We now have the whole Province as local authority areas.  I do not know whether provision has in fact been made that all fines that are levied will go to such local authorities, be it the regional councils or the urban local authorities.

I think the principle is wrong that officials of the Road Traffic Inspectorate are required to do the work, their salaries, on the budget, page 12.9 there is R35 million provided for the Road Traffic Inspectorate but the income all goes to local authorities.  The principle is wrong.

I raised this at a Committee meeting.  I would sincerely hope that the Minister will succeed in his undertaking that he gave then, that this matter has to be followed up because it is only right when provincial traffic officials are involved and have to man roadblocks or traffic offence traps, it is only right that the Province should get the benefit of that.  We should then in fact be able to improve the salary structure of road traffic officials.

Another matter relating to this.  One of the most serious problems that we have on our roads is overloaded vehicles.  Only a few weeks ago there was a horrific accident down Townhill, when a lorry which was seriously overloaded overturned with a huge granite block that fell onto a small car and blocked the passengers of that car, locked them into their car so that they could not be released.  The car caught fire and the passengers of the car were burnt alive because no one could help them.

Now I believe that especially granite carrying heavy vehicles, have on so many occasions been caught for overloading, that the time has arrived that the Province, and these come from other provinces, that the Provincial Road Traffic Inspectorate should contact the manufacturers of those or the miners of that granite and enter into agreements and arrangements with them, that under no circumstances should they load those huge granite blocks on vehicles which are not licensed to carry huge granite blocks of that weight.

Not only do they cause damage to our roads but they are also a traffic hazard because a driver who carries such a load on an overloaded vehicle has difficulty in manoeuvring and in managing such a vehicle.  I believe that something should be urgently done to do that.

I am pleased that this Province has for many, many years taken the lead in dealing with overloaded vehicles.  We cannot only deal with the problem, we must address the source of the problem at the source.  Therefore I sincerely appeal that this matter should be taken up.

The hon member in his speech referred to economic corridors.  Roads are the life artery of the economic wellbeing of a province.  I sincerely appreciate and applaud the fact that an economic corridor to the Maputoland area is to be constructed.  I applaud that.

Now that is a corridor to a neighbouring country, but I believe that we should also look at the economic corridors within our Province.  I have on numerous occasions pleaded for the establishment of an economic corridor to open up the Tugela Basin area.  An economic corridor that would add to the North/South lines of communication that we have by road.  An economic corridor that will also serve as a West/East link up.

I believe that if a new road, properly constructed and tarred, was developed from Kranskop to Eshowe it would open up the link from Estcourt, from Colenso, from Pietermaritzburg, from Mooi River, via Greytown/Kranskop to Eshowe, Empangeni, Richards Bay, and it would open up the economic development potential of the Tugela Basin.  It would enhance considerably the economic development potential of Ulundi and the surrounding areas.

I believe it is absolutely essential that we look at this.  The link from Kranskop up to where a tarred road is to Eshowe is less than 60 kilometres and it cannot be that expensive, it is difficult terrain, but it cannot be that expensive to embark on such a road.

I appreciate that our economic funds and financial resources are extremely limited, and in conjunction with the Minister of Economic Affairs, whose task it is and whose duty it is to open up channels of economic development, I believe the hon Minister also in conjunction with Mr Mac Maharaj, the Minister responsible at National level and the Minister of Economic Affairs, should give serious consideration to opening up economic corridors that would develop the economic potential.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.  That would develop the economic potential within our Province.  An area that has been identified as having tremendous economic potential, namely the Tugela Basin area.

I personally believe that the reduction in the funds being made available for road maintenance is very shortsighted. 

I do not blame the Minister.  These are funds made available through the Treasury, but the mere fact that our roads network is deteriorating will lead us to a situation where it becomes more expensive to restructure those roads than what it is if we were to spend funds now on maintaining to a proper standard, the road network that we have.

The gravel roads, the tar roads are all deteriorating at a rapid rate.  It is absolutely essential for the economic wellbeing of this Province that this matter should be attended to and addressed and that the urgency of this should get the necessary attention.

I applaud the Minister's initiatives in raising additional funds but these are of a limited value because the problem is a major problem and it needs to be addressed.  We should have a traffic plan and a road construction plan on a National basis.  I sincerely believe that the Minister is interested and is doing his best and we will all support him in that.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Mthiyane for ten minutes.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Mr Chairman, first of all, I want to express my pleasure to the Minister of Transport for today's speech he presented.  It is indeed a good speech.  I want to compliment the Minister.

I wish to address the issue of taxi violence in our Province and the entire country.  Before I do that, please allow me to ask the Minister the question.  Why this toll road from Durban to Pietermaritzburg cost R1,50 per single but the other toll roads going to Zululand is a higher cost?  From R3,20 to R13,00 per single, especially at Mtunzini toll plaza.  Is that because this road takes us to Ulundi? 

HON MEMBERS:  LAUGHTER AND INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  Give him a hearing.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  I remember the Minister's words in 1995 where he said there is heavy mist between Durban and Ulundi, all along the way.  There is too much mist.  Maybe that is why he put the collection fees so high.

I also remember the statement made by the Minister in 1995 where he said the abuse of Government vehicles will be stopped very soon, but it is more than before.  On Sundays, on holidays you can find all over the show KZN and ZG vehicles in the streets for private use.  You even find it at the beach area.  The Minister promised that this will be stopped very soon.  Even in shebeen areas you find KZN cars parked.  So I will request the Minister to fulfil his promise.

Coming back to the issue of taxi violence.  The Government's suggestion and plans, programmes, training is unquestionable, but the conflict among the taxi operators is there.  The development of the taxi ranks is undeniable but the people are fighting.

We need solutions on this in order to stop these killings.  People are killing one another.  Especially at Durban Station there is no unity.  The Minister, in his speech never touched on that, there is conflict and fighting at Durban Station.  The Department of Transport needs to prioritise that problem.

The taxi war must be prioritised before the implementation of all other suggestions and programmes.  Durban Station Association is fighting.  There are two groups.  One group is operating, one group is not operating.  People are killing one another.  The matter is in the hands of the Department but the Department is handling this matter at a dead slow pace.  I am concerned.  I appeal to the Minister to seek assistance from other people because it is clear that he cannot solve this matter alone.

A Commission of Inquiry was appointed last year.  I assumed that they were paid more than R30 000 for the work they did with no result.  It did not help.  The escalation of this violence after the Commission of Inquiry has now reached a crisis and people are dying.

Although the Minister is talking about unity, he is talking about the offices, talking about registration.  Yes, that we welcome but I think a more important issue is to take these fights, these taxi wars in a serious manner, because all over the show guns are running among the taxis.

I cannot believe that if there are two groups fighting, one group working, one is not working, it will solve the problem of the conflict until the mediation, until the two groups should be brought together and thoroughly discuss the issue.  I do not think the Commission will help because the Commission will find out what happened, what is the cause of this conflict.


TRANSLATION:  Perhaps it is said they are just fighting over a girl then it ends there, that will not end the fight.  They fight for a girl and people die.  Mr Chairman, if this issue of the Durban Station is not dealt with speedily, I think that everything that the Department is doing in regard to the taxis will not bare fruit anywhere because people are dying.

As I speak, on Wednesday, that is last Wednesday, when I was at Eshowe, I discovered that one member had been shot and was in hospital.  Last night somebody was shot and his van is full of bullet holes.

Mr Chairman, I think that the Minister held the meeting and I thought that he was dealing with this matter speedily, the speed that was referred to by Nyambose, when he said that he was acting speedily in this matter, but after that I think that the speed was reduced before arriving at the destination.

But people are dying, even if good things are done and buses and taxis are brought together, and places where they can get petrol are created.  And places are created in the towns for the taxis, but that will not help in anyway if people continue to die.

Mr Minister, as you have shown us how fast you can run regarding your work, I say that is obvious.  But it is very important to solve the fighting that involves the taxis at the Durban Station.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M J MTHIYANE: 

TRANSLATION:  Another thing that the Minister will have to realise clearly, is that if you are going to able to solve the fighting regarding the taxis, you must find somebody who knows about taxi politics, if it is not so, a learned person will not able to solve it.

You cannot take a person who is involved in boxing and tell him to go and sort out the fighting in the soccer, because that person does not know anything about soccer.

So, the Minister must find people who are suitable, in order for them to help him in this matter and they should be the peacemakers.  At Pinetown we hear that there is peace, then we hear that the taxis are standing still and people have died.

Then the learned people are chosen and they go and make a noise, notwithstanding the fact that they know nothing about the taxis, and it is just taken for granted that the violence continues.

I say this task team must not be seen making offices and just be seen on the register, but it must be seen putting an end to the violence.  Because you cannot develop people while they are in a hole, Nyambose said take the person out of the hole first and then wash him.

If you wash him while he is inside the hole you are washing him in the mud, thank you.  T/E.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr B Mthembu who will address the House for 12 minutes.

MR S B MTHEMBU:  

TRANSLATION:  I rise and thank you for this opportunity that you have given me Mr Chairman.  During this opportunity I want to build on what a lot of my brothers have touched on, because we are all compelled by circumstances to say with one voice as follows to the Minister of Transport: Manzankosi when you put this document of yours down before this House, it becomes crystal clear that we have lost out for so many years in the past, when we did not have an opportunity to be in these positions, because this Portfolio of Transport, together with the needs of the people would have reached first world standards and would compare favourably with standards the world over.  I congratulate you, sir.

Let me also say Mr Minister, that the great steps that your Department has taken in dealing with the situations under which the Department of Transport has got to operate, so as to see clearly that we have a future.  They also show us that you are on the verge of winning this battle, if you have to ask me that question I would agree.

We do have work to do in the Department of Transport.  One is in a fortuitus position when presenting this speech, because when one looks at the Ministers speech he touched on all the important issues that one would have wanted to touch on especially when he said which areas needed the most effort.

I am looking specifically at the communities that are under the jurisdiction of ~Amakhosi~, these are communities that have never had people to care for them, that have never had Governments who believe that these are communities that are governed by them.  Of all the Governments that have ever held the reigns of power, I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but I am concerned about the truth and that is that we are not going to hide anything today.

Chairman, the community that is there, is a community that is almost the majority of people who inhabit this place.  So if things change and bring the necessary development, this development which we spoke about and said that the Government of the people would bring to the people.

We will not be going in the right direction, if this vehicle which opens all sorts of developmental opportunities, and allows them to reach the communities in the rural areas, is not supported with the kind of support that is almost greater than everything and greater than all the forms of support that have been given so far.  We must support all the following avenues which bring development to the people.

I say this because you will not see any type of development in the rural areas where there is no road.  The problem is you might have beautiful schools, that are built in the rural areas, which schools were built with great difficulty because of the fact that there are no roads, but is very difficult to find suitable people to teach in those schools.  Because the teachers say they look at the situation and say oh, my God how will I get from here to my family, that becomes a problem.

So when we have arrived at this juncture, it is clear that this Government of the people, is bringing a lot of things to the people, because what the Minister has said reveals a lot of plans which have been put in place, in order to deal with the situation, which needs to be dealt with if we are going to build roads which are known in English as community access roads.

We believe that it will be the first time that the promises that were made to the people have been kept.  For this we are grateful both to the Minister and to the Department. 

Mr Speaker, I want to mention a few things, I have already touched on the issue of the communities in the rural areas in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  I want to touch on the crux of their needs and problems which they are facing and which needs to be met so that they can breathe.

There are certain plans that are coming to the fore, which are referred to in English as Road Safety Plans.  One can see that from now on, referring to the not to distance future, our generation probably will not confront the difficulties which the black people confronted in the last ten years.

If you carefully count the road accidents that occur on our roads, you will find that more people have been killed on our roads, than those that have been killed by violence in one year.  If you try and compare the two phenomena you will discover that one of the things that the Government urgently needs to address is the issue of road accidents.  A lot of effort has to be put into this to make sure that the people of this Province are safe.

I do not believe that in this House of yours, there is anyone who does not know how many lives have been lost on our roads.

My last point, as I near the end of my speech, I want to express my great joy upon hearing the speech delivered by the Minister of the Department of Transport.  When one talks about the small contractors, and the role which they played in the building of roads in this our land, in this Province of ours, of KwaZulu-Natal.  In this Province of ours we have approximately 300 registered small contractors, who are on the list of small contractors.

The policy which is followed by this Department, which is the Department of Transport, is very good, and it causes us to have hope.  It promises a lot for the nation.  The role that they play, when compared to the big contractors, and those who have the power to be regarded as big business, is not yet great enough, Manzankosi.

One eventually gets the feeling that they are being discriminated against, for although they play a role, they never get to the point where we too can be proud of them as a nation seeing that they are free now.  One would like to see them in the role of big business, and playing the role of employers just like the big companies.

As far as that is concerned, one gets the feeling that some effort has to be put into this situation.  In order to ensure that the small contractors do not remain so, but that they too will end up being in a position which gives hope, or else to be in a position which shows that you start off small and that you get bigger as you get older.

If one looks at the type of business that has been conducted in the taxi industry, there are efforts to improve the industry itself.  One is of the opinion that it would be a good thing if an effort could be made, in order to give the small contractors hope that they too are being looked after.  Such a policy would give them hope that they too could grow, and become big contractors, and be in a position to compete with other contractors that have been in the market for a long time.

It seems as if some skulduggery is in place and that there are situations which are designed to prevent opportunities which will cause them to develop, but they are just given the type of opportunity to stand still and never go forward, and to stay small for eternity.  [APPLAUSE]

Mr Chairman, I want to recommend that the Department should do something similar to what was done with the taxi industry.  They should be given support for a short time in order to gather themselves as businessmen, or perhaps the small contractors should have an office which has structures that will enable them to develop.  They must be educated and trained, just as the Minister has said.  This will enable them to reach a level which will indicate that they know exactly where they are going, so that that which they receive from the role they play, which we say is not sufficient, will enable them to perhaps put 2% into their fund.  This will cause them to grow into giants.  That is what we anticipated when we freed this country, namely that those that were small could get bigger and older, and they could be seen to be developing into bigger fish who can swallow whatever fish is weaker than them.  [APPLAUSE]  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [One minute left].

MR S B MTHEMBU: 
TRANSLATION:  Because I have said what I wanted to say, Mr Chairman, this one minute of yours I ask you to keep.  Thank you.  I am proposing what I have said.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Mthembu.  The next on the list is the hon member Mr Nel who will address the House for six minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  I do not know if our Rules specifically provide for it, but it is not normal parliamentary practice for people in the public gallery to respond, to applaud or to make any comments.  I just want to point out that I have absolute understanding for the reaction, but it is not normal parliamentary practice.

AN HON MEMBER:  Except if they are hired to do so.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I did not get Mr Gwala.  No, for the benefit of the members of the public, it is not allowed to clap hands unless with my permission.  I will give you permission to do so.  Our next speaker is the hon member Mr Nel.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman, can we get clarification.  Are you going to consider granting permission or have you granted the permission?  I believe that convention is made by man.  We had National Party convention, we are now in a new era.

AN HON MEMBER:  What about women?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have not granted permission now.  I will do so if I feel like doing so as the Chairman of this House at the moment.

TRANSLATION:  I want to explain to the members of the public who are visiting us, that the policy of this Parliament is that we do not clap hands unless we have been given permission to do so by the Speaker.

The question then which has to be asked is, have you been given permission?  My saying so indicates that no, I have not given you permission.  I will give you permission to do so if I think that it is appropriate for me to give you that permission.  We are therefore asking the public that is visiting us not to clap hands.  T/E
 
MR W U NEL: 
TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I trust that you might as well give them permission to do so retrospectively because they have already done so.

When I speak today, I want to lodge a complaint with the Minister of Transport.  Today I have received five or six reports.  Look at this bundle, and these are delicate matters.  I must read them carefully and take a long time over them.

I wanted to remind the Minister that I am not married.  The work that I am supposed to do during the night, how am I going to do it now?  [LAUGHTER]   T/E

MR V A VOLKER: [He should get married now]. 
MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, but in all seriousness, we have received here, unfortunately at very short notice, this afternoon a set of reports which I must say are frankly very impressive indeed.  It is the sort of report that is going to take a lot of study and contains a lot of useful information.  I must congratulate the Minister and his Department on the reports that they have tabled.

You know, it is practice sometimes in an institution such as this Parliament ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can I rise on a point of order, Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon member used the word "complaint" about this report.  We had this in our Portfolio Committee.  The trouble is that he did not attend that committee meeting.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, that is not a point of order.  You can continue, Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, it is sometimes practice in institutions like ours that when a department has a bad report they table it with very short notice so that they cannot be properly criticised in the debate.

Now in this instance it would have been well worth the Minister's while to table these last week because there is very much that is of use to us in here.

I think this is an example of a Department that is geared to spend money effectively and whether we gave the Department R100 million or R200 million or R500 million tomorrow, we can be sure that there is a list of priorities and a plan.  They will be able to allocate it immediately and by the time the year is over the money will be spent and spent effectively.

That is what we have in mind in the Democratic Party when we talk about reprioritising a budget and actually getting value for money.  When we tabled or suggested, and we have tabled two amendments for the allocation of the so-called slush funds, it was with this kind of thing in mind.  That there are actually places in the budget, places in Government in certain departments where we could usefully allocate the money upfront, because if we go the other route of trying to prioritise in the next couple of months and debating new criteria, we are afraid that a lot of that money will be wasted and will not be properly and timeously spent.

We see here a Department which thankfully has got an extra R100 million in the last two or three weeks from funds that will be generated by licences and various other initiatives, but the money is going to be spent on community access roads which is precisely the kind of RDP function that money should be spent on.  The communities that have been neglected in the past, that will feel the effect of this money in the short term.  That is what we like to see.  So we want to congratulate the Department on it and we believe that that money will be well spent.

However, that deals with a new avenue of expenditure.  There is the existing infrastructure, the roads that we have come to know, our provincial roads, our district roads that are in bad need of maintenance.  There are, of course, also others that need to be constructed.  It is for that reason that we have suggested in the reallocation of funds that a further R40 million should be targeted, should be transferred to this Department and targeted for construction and maintenance of our roads.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR W U NEL:  Because we feel that the multiplier effect will make that a most worthwhile investment and will be of great benefit to the economy of this Province.

I would, however, also like to ask the Minister to comment on his policy on contributions by the private sector to maintenance or construction of roads because I believe it is a problem area.  It has contractual implications, it also has problems of principle which I have with it, but I understand that it is starting to happen more and more all over the Province and I would caution that we think about it very carefully before we start doing it in an ad hoc fashion.

The last thing that I want to raise with the Minister is the matter of taxis and taxi forums and we heard a report earlier.  My concern is that taxi drivers have been excluded in this process.  There is a lot of pressure on taxi drivers, to actually make money for the owners, the operators of taxis, and that in itself places pressure on drivers, that are not necessarily protected, or they should be, but they are not protected by  normal labour legislation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR W U NEL:  And therefore sometimes take extreme measures to guard their jobs and that perhaps is a contributory factor to violence.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Our next speaker will be the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mathaba who will address the House for ten minutes.

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 


TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I too must stand in order to thank the Government of the hon Manzankosi.  I want to say this, although we are now in Government, and we now have Ministers who are our Ministers who we can believe in, the public which we serve has not felt this freedom which people say has arrived.  I am going to mention at the end what the cause of this is.  I will then ask the Minister to use his powers.

I am saying this, namely that our communities have not felt the freedom which we think we are now involved in.  It is because our people are poor, especially those who live in the areas which we govern as ~Amakhosi~.

There are no communities who are so poor as those communities which are in the areas of ~Amakhosi~ in the rural areas.  In these areas you still find that to go to the shop is a problem.  In these areas you find that donkeys are inspanned, and a sack made in half so that it hangs down on both sides.

We do not have bridges.  If the donkey feels angry or is in a bad mood, if it feels so inclined while you are crossing the river, it just lies down with its load of mealie meal.  That means that there will be hunger there.

That is what I mean when I say, the joy of this freedom has not come to our people, where our people, the mothers and wives, as my brother Nel has said about the work that he has done during the night, it is obvious that this work cannot be done.  When you have done the work, which is done during the night, a person has to give birth, there are no roads.  People have to be carried on stretchers.  It is very difficult.

In spite of all this, I am not saying, Manzankosi, it was because of you.  Yes, Mr Sutcliffe, even if you are now sitting on that side, we are suffering so much, and it is because of you personally, even though you are now putting on an act on that side, so that it looks as if you like us whereas in fact you do not like us.  We suffer very much.  There is no nation that has suffered like the black people.

For over a 100 years I want to say, brother, that I want to congratulate the black nation.  I want to say to them, "You are like an iron which cannot be bent, and you will never be bent even by a diamond.  You are long-suffering".  Today we are in control of the country.  I do not want to go into too much detail about this.  I could just mention other roads which need to be repaired.  It is important that the departments are able to work together.  Let me just mention the road that goes from Mtubatuba across to KwaNongoma.

This road goes past the game reserve.  If the Department of Tourism could work together with the Department of the Environment, working in conjunction with your Department, Manzankosi, I think we could prevent the things that are problems to us.  This would lead to roads being built by the departments working together.

This would help in the sense that we would not be looking at just one department and expecting that single department to do the work.  Departments should in fact work together.  This would be an example of departments working together.

I made an example regarding Mtubatuba and KwaNongoma.  There is also the road that comes from Hluhluwe, that road also needs to be seen to, especially in the light of the fact that that road is in the vicinity of the Royal Palaces of the King.  The King uses those roads on a daily basis when he is on the way to his fields, and he has to travel on bad roads.

In this regard, the Transport Forums have already been established.  I am in agreement with the hon member Mvelase, when he says there is a need for our people who, for a long time, have been denied opportunities to be contractors, that those people should be given the necessary wherewithal so that our people can also prosper.

I am of the view that some of these projects could in fact be handled by our people.  I am also grateful for these Transport Forums that have been established.  I must warn you about something, and that is, even now that the Forums have been established properly in all the places where they need to be, and they are going well, there are still whites, I must say that, and say there are still whites who are in this Department of yours who do not want to change from their old ways.

I am now going to ask for an opportunity to mention them by name, because it is said that here nothing must be hidden.  On 29 April there was a meeting at Ongoye, at the Gingindlovu hall.  At that meeting Mr van Rensburg did not want to work together with the Transport Forums.  We will eventually reach a stage where it will seem as if the Transport Forums are not doing their job whereas in fact that is as a result of one person who is sitting in a position, and who does not want development.

I must say again, as I have mentioned Ongoye, there was a meeting that was held there on the 29th.  I could mention another example, where the community of Umbumbulu had taken a letter to Merebank.  That letter was just scrunched up and thrown into the dustbin.  That was done by Mr Boshoff.

I am of the opinion that there is a possibility that these are your people, they work for you.  I am of the opinion that they are directly hindering your personal progress.  This makes it look as if the work that we have been placed here to do is not being done.

I would like to mention that this is the last person that I am going to mention now.  [LAUGHTER]  I will leave the others.  I would like also to mention Estcourt.  I am still referring to one and the same people.  It needs to be remembered at what stage and time we are living in now.

Even if we say we have received our freedom, our freedom is ours, but now these Transport Forums, if they are going to have teeth to bite and be able to put things down on the ground so that they are visible, that they are happening, then one person comes along and blocks the whole process.  Mr Burnett comes along and he blocks the whole process.  Mr Burnett does not want any development at Estcourt.

When our people, our school children, complain and say that a bridge should be built, he just takes that and throws it aside.  I do have those complaints that come from the public, Manzankosi.  I would like to end off with these complaints that I have put forward and see what you are going to do about them.

The time is over where we had to say, "Boss".  That time is in the past.  We are all equal, we are all the same.  There are no bosses now.  The time for bosses is over now.  What I am saying is that if these bosses think that these positions which they hold are too hot for them, they had better leave these positions.

I want to congratulate my sister Jenny Gray who has been promoted to this high position in Manzankosi's Department.  Who knows, my sister, whether these shoes of Marais into which you have stepped, whether these shoes are going to fit you.  What size shoe do you wear?

Perhaps Mr Marais wore a size 10 shoe.  Perhaps you wear a size 7 shoe.  That means, my sister, you are going to have to drag your shoes around.  Be that as it may, we wish you well, my sister.  There is no other way for you to do your work other than to listen to our advice, and we are going to work together.  Not that we are going to be told by you, but we are going to advise each other.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [The hon member has one minute].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 
TRANSLATION:  What I am saying is that we must congratulate you, my sister.  It is the first time that a lady has been appointed to this type of position in any one of our departments.  It means that what was done in Beijing is having an effect.  I thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We thank you, sir].  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Waugh who will address the House for seven minutes.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  It is a privilege for me to participate in this budget debate today after my maiden speech of yesterday.  I now feel like a fully fledged member of this House.

Let me congratulate the Minister on a few achievements from him and his Department during the past year.

In the first place, the completion of the North Coast toll road.  I know this is a National Government responsibility but I also know that our Minister played a major role in that.  This road was very necessary for the economic development of that region.  We all know that Richards Bay and Empangeni are two areas in our Province that attract major industries.  Therefore the completion of that road was a major boost.

I also see that the work is in progress on the section on the other side of ~Empangeni~ to ~Mtubatuba~.  I would also like to thank the Minister for the input he gave to get that work going.

This will also have a major effect on that region.  In the past many lives were claimed on that stretch of road, but I am sure that once that is completed, to some extent, this will also be addressed.

We all know the importance of Tourism to our Province, and then with Northern Zululand being one of our tourist attractions, I am sure that the completion of that section will also enhance that industry.

Let us also congratulate the Minister of Transport on the initiative on the personalised numberplates.  When I look around Durban it seems to me that this initiative achieved what he intended to do, and that was to increase the income generation of the Department.  It will be interesting to know precisely  what additional income this has generated as well as the other initiative announced last year, which was the selling of lower numbers at a higher rate.

I would like to address the issue of road safety.  Road safety is one of the things we should teach our children from a very early age, as early as pre-school and primary school.  This may belong to the Department of Education, but our Minister of Transport and his Department must press upon the urgency and the need for these road safety programmes.

I need not emphasise the cost of accidents today.  We are all aware of these figures, but if we start a programme with the children, on how pedestrians for example, should behave on roads, in a few years time we will reap the fruits of our efforts.  Private funding could possibly be obtained for this.  If not, consideration should be given to launch such a programme with funds from the Premier's Discretionary Fund.

We on this side of the House fully associate ourselves with the concern raised in the report in the budget.  We can see how some of the roads in the Province are deteriorating.  Seeing that our budget for maintenance and construction is cut back, one should look at some of the causes for the deterioration of the roads.

My colleague, the hon Mr Volker, did mention that but in my opinion one of the causes is the overloading of trucks that use our roads.  Should we not increase the policing on these overloaded vehicles?  Should we not also give consideration to increasing the fines?  Should we also not maybe consider removing the trucks off the roads and impounding them?  If one can cut down on the weight of these overloaded trucks I am sure that the lifespan of the roads could be lengthened.

When I look at the reply to question 21 in Volume 1 of Hansard of 1997.  The question was about what was collected in toll fees at each of the toll plazas in KwaZulu-Natal in 1996?  The reply I see excludes two large toll plazas, namely Mooi River and Tugela.  Without those two the income is in the region of approximately R200 million a year.  If you add those two I am sure we are looking at an income close to 300 million for the year.

I am aware that these monies go to National Government, but I would like to know what percentage of that comes back to our Province to improve and maintain the national roads in our Province?  Should the largest share of that income not be spent in the province in which it is raised?  If so, we are pleased but I am not sure that that is the case.

As far as the roads serving the rural areas are concerned, one can only congratulate the Minister and his Department with what they achieve with the resources available to them.  We in this Province, through the initiative of this Minister and his Department, now know precisely what our needs are as far as these community roads are concerned.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Furthermore, we also have a plan on the table.  The Department and the Minister has a plan on the table and how funds were obtained over a three year period.

I think that this is a major achievement, and consideration must now be given to creating jobs in the constructing of these roads and bridges.  We now have the opportunity to use the labour from that specific area where the need was identified.

There is one thing that I see little attention has been given to up until now, and that is the fencing of our roads.  I need not emphasise the importance of this.  Should this problem not be addressed with the assistance of the local people?  We should not just go and erect the fences.  Let us negotiate with the local people and also meet their needs, for example as far as access to the roads are concerned.

In closing, when I was told that I am to speak in this debate and not being here for such a long time, I decided to start off by reading Hansard from the previous year.  I must today admit that this Department has done relatively well.  One can see what was mentioned in Hansard last year and one can look at the achievements.  One should at this stage just say we thank the Minister and his Department for what they have done and we would, as far as possible, support them in their efforts for this coming year.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Rajbansi who will speak for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In the past few years without any reservations I praised this Minister to the heavens.  In the past few days, with all the experience behind me I tried to find fault with this Minister for today's debate.  I failed dismally to find any fault because here is a Minister who satisfies every accepted criteria of being a good Minister and a good administrator.  He has not even mentioned what he has displayed outside for us.

I want to say to this Government, to this Province, that we have many Ministers who are working hard.  I have praised the hon Premier.  Some people are upset with me for that, but we believe that we must be honest, we must be truthful.

I want to commend the hon Minister for taking the bull by the horns.  When in our programme of parliamentary accountability when he was not carrying this responsibility of Government motor transport, when we were exposing maladministration and wrongdoing, the Minister acted within 24 hours and the results are there.  They are visible.  We have the reduced unnecessary additional expenditure.

I am glad that in today's debate the hon Mr Wessels changed his tune about the slush fund and he says now it is a "so-called" slush fund.  The hon Minister no less than three times during his speech, shall I say referred to the Cabinet allocating the Discretionary Fund for essential services, especially in the most impoverished areas in our Province.  If the Cabinet did not have the discretion and if we listened to the Democratic Party and decided rigidly that this money goes to line function departments, where we will need the authority of Parliament with an Amendment Bill for the Cabinet, shall I say to use those Discretionary Funds.  What has been done in respect of this Discretionary Fund has been praised today by the hon Mr Wessel Nel, and he must be honest enough to admit to this Province that they misled this Province, that we have slush funds.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we have a point of order, Mr Rajbansi.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, can I ask the hon member a question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  He can put the question any time if he wants it for cheap publicity, I will grant him that concession which he always does.  [LAUGHTER]

MR W U NEL:  Can the hon member now explain to us where the R100 million for community access roads come from and how he manages to describe it as part of the Discretionary Fund?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Well, the hon member gave the answer.  It will take me two hours to answer the question.  I have all the knowledge with me, Mr Chairman.  If the Rules can be suspended to give me the two hours.  [LAUGHTER]

I want to appeal to the hon Minister, in the eyes of a black child who saw bridges, because there was no difference between Hitler and the National Party for the purposes for which they built roads in Germany and this country.  There is no doubt about it.  That can be established beyond all reasonable doubt.  If the black child wants to translate freedom and say, "I still have to cross a river to go to a school".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If the hon Premier for example gets our macro plan quickly for casinos we can get R30 million for school children.  [LAUGHTER]  We must tax the site operators.  You have got money.  We are letting money go.  Let us now give priority to the areas, to the rural areas as given to us by the hon member on the other side.

I want to say, Minister, you have done a job, excellently.  Keep on with the good work.  As you continue you will get our wholehearted support.  I want to congratulate you for really promoting SMMEs.  Every Minister, every department, whether it is site operators or whether it is emerging contractors, we must bear in mind that if you want to help the impoverished black masses of this Province, put SMMEs as your highest priority.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Next on the list is the hon member Miss Buthelezi who will speak for 12 minutes.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I want to congratulate the Minister of Transport and his Department for their effort in dealing with corruption in this Department, in a successful manner.

Before I continue, I want to respond to some of the previous speakers.  One of them was hon Mr Motala, who said we should ask for more money from the National Government.  I am not against that, but I think as the Province we should divide our share accordingly and not pay the ghost workers.

I also want to respond to the issue of salaries of the traffic inspectors.  The Minister of Transport took over this Department after the elections in 1994.  Before that nobody cared about the scandalous salaries of these people.  It is very surprising that the member of the Nationalist Party who was also part of the decision making in the previous Government, which was in power since 1948, can raise that question today, while he is supposed to refer himself to their ~apartheid~ and discrimination policies.

I also want to respond on the issue of abuse of Government vehicles.  I think the member should not shift the responsibility to the Minister and the Department.  The member should ask himself what has he done to stop the abuse of the vehicles and also in normalising the situation on taxi violence.  The member should know that as he is a member of this House, it is his responsibility to assist the Department with the above issues as the Minister and the people in the Department are human beings, as we are.

One of the greatest challenges facing the Department in the next year is public transport and the management of transport subsidies.  Some members have already referred to the question of bus subsidies.  The Provincial Department of Transport took over the administration of bus subsidies from 1 April this year and the total amount of money to be spent on public transport is R299 million.

Each year there is an increased demand for buses both in the urban and rural areas.  At the same time budget cuts have resulted in less money available for subsidies.  Despite the R299 million available for subsidies there is a shortfall and this shortfall is carried by the bus operators.  The result of shortage in subsidies has resulted in big bus operators being badly affected.

The lack of subsidies has also had a bad effect on levels of services in the rural areas.  The situation in rural areas is made worse by poor roads, inaccessible terrain and competition from taxi operators.  This competition has often resulted in violence.

There is a great need to re-organise scholar and pension subsidies, which will require very close co-operation between the Departments of Transport, Education and Welfare. 

Many of the difficulties the Department will have to handle with regard to passenger transport stems directly from the policy of ~apartheid~, which as a matter of Government policy moved the poor and disadvantaged communities away from access to amenities, such as Local Government offices and hospitals.

As the population increases to the number of travellers, the distances travelled will increase.  The majority of our people cannot afford private transport.  They will be relying on public transport.

With regard to taxis.  The Department has made a lot of progress in sorting out the problems in the taxi industry.  For example, the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Task Team is up and running.  A taxi registrar has been appointed and taxis are being registered.  The taxi industry is an important area of black economic empowerment.  It is vital, not only for the taxi operators themselves, but also for the economy of the Province, that the taxi industry be normalised.  There is a large potential investment for the taxi operators in the taxi industry and related fields.  This investment will not be forthcoming as long as the taxi industry is subject to serious problems.

South Africa has one of the worst safety records in the world.  Road safety must be given the priority that it deserves.  This House needs to give its full support to Project Victoria, which aims to reduce the number of deaths and injuries on our roads.

The project aims to do this by a combination of education and tough enforcement measures.  We as the Legislature must ensure that the Department receives the funds to make our roads safe again.

I would also like to touch on the issue of affirmative action.  Contrary to the allegation of those who jump when they see their own shadows, it is not the aim to do away with qualifications.  What we as the ANC are against is not the upholding of standards as such, but the sustaining of barriers to the attainment of standards.

As the Government we should establish measures that we envisage to overcome the legacy of past discrimination.  These are not intended to ensure the advancement of unqualified persons but to see to it that those who have been denied access to qualifications in the past can become qualified, and that those who have been qualified all along, but overlooked because of discrimination be given their due.

I would also like to congratulate the Department of Transport because it has started to implement affirmative action.  These are tremendous challenges facing the Department, but I believe that they have the leadership, the motivation and skill to provide what our people require and were denied under ~apartheid~, self-reliable and affordable public transport in both urban and rural areas.  I thank you, Mr Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member, you have saved us a few minutes as well.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Mfayela who will speak for ten minutes.

MR D P MFAYELA:

TRANSLATION:  Chairman, the Minister, as a believer, knows that sometimes when the Reverend gets up and says a word everybody then supports his word.  In this case the verse has already been mentioned in a certain verse.

Manzankosi, when you gave your speech something happened that has never happened in this Parliament.  All the members of this your House clapped hands in appreciation of your speech.  They only got a fright later when it was said that the people in the gallery must not clap hands, then they realised that they had made a mistake themselves by clapping hands.

Manzankosi, when it was reported to us that you were ill we realised that we had a problem, because we did not know where we would find people such as yourself.  Then you brought your phrase that says, "We remember them", this word that says, "We remember them".  We would have remembered, Manzankosi, because it is always there ringing in our hearts the way you announced that roads would be built.  Miracles have been built.  We believed that today we would have had roads all over the place, according to what you said.

Those who chose you, Manzankosi, to be the speaker at that time have been vindicated by you.  They even went into the election.  That is why my brother Mthembu said, "Even those who will not see will end up seeing".  We trust, Mr Chairman, that what has been done by the Department of Transport will be fulfilled, and it will not just be empty promises which we are promised when we read this book, and then tomorrow we find ourselves being asked by the people that are sitting in the gallery, and they say to us, "What you said down there in the chamber, what were you talking about, because what you said would happen is not happening".

I want to concentrate on the Transport Forums.  As I looked at the policy speech of the Minister, I saw that there are Transport Forums in almost every district.  The situation on the ground does not accord with this, because when you are out there on the road you find that there is not enough implements to work with.

If I look at the situation which pertains to the place where I come from, which is Ndwedwe, and I look at the fact that we have four tractors in the magisterial district which has 18 ~Amakhosi~, when do you think this beautiful work which Manzankosi has referred to is going to reach us if we have so few implements to work with?

Another thing that I should perhaps mention are bulldozers.  In the magisterial district which I have referred to, we have only two small bulldozers which are not able to work in hilly areas of the district.

If in our district we only have 1460s and BK2s and we do not have bulldozers and D85s in Ndwedwe, the end result is that the beautiful work of the Minister does not come to fruition.

We trust that the hon member, through you, Mr Chairman, that the work will not come to nought, just as ~Inkosi~ farmer Mathaba has already said when he mentioned important people who are working in the Department, who proved to be honest in the Minister's Department.

When they are in private they do their own thing.  It then becomes obvious that they are not the poor people, we are the ones who are very poor.  Those people who were promised roads and everything else, those are the people who suddenly found themselves voting in the election of 1994.  They did this because they believed that all their problems that had beset them for many years, during successive Governments who caused them to suffer, that they would be free from them.

These people who say, "Perhaps even the trees and the stones of South Africa will testify of the work done by the Government of KwaZulu".  Perhaps it is human nature to spit on the one who has helped you.  A lot of people would not be in this House if the Government of KwaZulu had not battled and battled for the day to arrive where we are today, where we have members of this Government in this House.

When we are at the point where we are going to tell the truth, the truth must be told so that we are able to go forward.  As we are thanking the hon member, Mr Chairman, and saying that he has done very good work, we are thanking him because we can see his good efforts.

We will not pour scorn on his efforts tomorrow and say that the hon member did not do work that was good and spit on him.  We are grateful that when your House talks about things today, it talks about things in a spirit of co-operation.  Your House does not say that when I work on this side as a member of this Legislature that we have today, that I work as a member of the ANC, that I have come to serve the members of the ANC.

That is also true of members of the IFP.  It must not be apparent that the member is working as a member of the IFP, but we must work in order to develop the black people who are poor.  These people that are there in the gallery are waiting for all of us to work, not that there should be somebody who works and others who hang back.

I want to say I am grateful and thankful, Chairman, for the good work that the hon member has done.  I am looking here at his figures.  He says there are 20 000 taxis.  I do not know whether perhaps the taxis in our area have been counted in this figure of his.  I have also looked at the amount of money together, which is R2,2 million, which is paid by the taxi industry for petrol.  I saw that R6 million is paid for parts.  I saw that R45 million is paid for tyres.  I do not know whether this includes the amount of money that is spent on broken windscreens, which are broken by the roads which are not properly tarred.

Perhaps the hon member will count that on another day, Mr Chairman.  I want to add my thanks and say that I support the vote of the Minister.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  ~Siyabonga~.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Gwala who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Chairman and the hon House.  Every time when I address issues during the debate on the Transport vote I become more flexible, because it is where my profession lies and I have been in the transport industry for almost 20 years.

Since 1801 when the first vehicle ran for 46 kilometres a day between Cape Town and George the transport crisis grew sharply day by day, until today.

Ministries of Transport have struggled to develop a strategic approach that will help to smooth the bumpy road towards formulating a transport policy that will satisfy most of the stakeholders and interest groups.  Their goals have not been achieved due to the complexity involved in the transport field.

I wish to commend the hon Minister of Transport, Mr S Ndebele and his Ministry for the tireless efforts they have demonstrated in trying to combat the taxi violence and the road traffic accidents, which are a threat to both human life and to the economy of the country.

Project Victoria initiated by the Provincial Ministry of Transport, last year, after extensive discussions with the transport officials of the Australian State of Victoria, is a programme that will take road safety measures to the fore.

I think that the Minister is correct to say that the Provincial Road Traffic Inspectorate is one of the strongest arms behind the KwaZulu-Natal's traffic safety.  That is why it is important to focus our attention on the methods used to test learner drivers, so that when they obtain their licences, this must be a proper licence which will not contribute to the road carnage.

The production of forged licences in the country is in itself an industry which tempted many road users to use a shortcut, paying enormous amounts to obtain their licences within two hours.  How many buses and taxis are there that have been transporting people from this Province to other provinces such as Mpumalanga to obtain driver's licences within two weeks?

This arrangement has tempted even senior parliamentarians such as the National Deputy Speaker, the hon Baleka Kgotsisile.  This raises many questions including the one saying how many members of this Legislature have forged driver's licences?  How many members of the other Legislatures and National Parliament have obtained their driver's licences through the back door?

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Until such time that question is not answered an accusing finger is pointed at every member of the House, we are duty bound to answer that question.  I have no forged licence.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Chair, can I also report, I do not have a forged licence.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we allow Mr Gwala to continue his speech.  I know the hon members do not do such things.

MR M B GWALA:  I think it is imperative therefore that the Department of Transport, must with immediate effect, embark on a feasibility study that will assist the Ministry to revamp the whole procedure of issuing driver's licences.

While we support the South African Police Services in their difficult and dangerous task of fighting crime, crime and criminals are still found on the streets.

Therefore it is vital that traffic officers be accorded the same status as the South African Police Services officials, so that they can be able to assist in crime prevention and criminal arrest.

Car hijacking, the ambushing of cars with pensioner's money, carrying of unlicensed arms and ammunition that destroy human lives through taxi violence and political violence are the things that happen on the streets of our country.  So it is important that the traffic officer's status be elevated to that of an officer of the South African Police.

The problem of taxi violence is reaching crisis proportions.  Everyone here is aware that the transport industry is unique in South Africa.  The removal and settlement policy of the former regime had compounded the situation worse than ever.

I think it is time now to focus deeply on the causes of the conflict between taxi organisations.  I know that there is a commission dealing with that at the moment and that more than 20 commissions had been tasked to investigate different aspects of transport, but all the recommendations of various commissions were not implemented.  If implemented, they failed to materialise.

The subsidy issue is becoming a nightmare to bus operators, especially the black operators, as the subsidy is granted to big white companies or white operators who convey black passengers coming from what was a designated area for blacks to what was a white designated spot.  The black people are still the victims of the ~apartheid~ laws because every year the Government cuts the subsidy and the passengers become the victims of the Removal and Settlement Act which was passed by the irresponsible Government of the past.

I do understand how the subsidy system works.  It is confusing.  It is the passenger rather than the operator who is subsidised, but the reality is that the money is channelled to the operator without the passenger knowing how much the Government had paid for him or her.

TRANSLATION:  I want to recommend that these roads that the Minister opens, that is very good.  It is bad if the Minister, when he opens the road, then it is only his party who speaks.  The Provincial Government does not get the credit, and that is the Government that the Minister represents.

This situation is slowly getting worse, so much so that some people are taking it as a joke, that the Minister makes roads in certain areas and in the rural areas because they say those are roads of a certain political party.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M B GWALA:
TRANSLATION:  I would be happy if the Minister could ensure that when these programmes are set up he should be careful not to be influenced by other people's thoughts.

I also want to talk about the issue of number-plates which are being changed at the moment in this Province, and also in other provinces.  This is a very good programme, but it becomes a bad programme when it shows signs of discrimination.  When this Government first started in 1994, the number-plates ZG and NPA were withdrawn.

Then the number-plate KZN was introduced.  The Government spent a lot of money in doing this.  While this was going on the colour of the number-plates were changed.  The Government also spent money in changing the colour of the number-plates of vehicles which numbered more than 10 000.

Is that not perhaps a waste?  Does the Department do a survey before these decisions are taken?  I would like this issue to be investigated by the Department.

I also want to say that in the changing of these number-plates, the fact that the number-plates beginning with the letter "N" in this Province, as we know that there are people that buy number-plates in various ways, that is a good thing, because the Government benefits.

It is good if the Department could change the Government registration numbers to KZN.  It would also be good because the letters KZN could stand for many things.  It makes us happy because the letters KZN could stand for KwaZulu-Natal, they could also stand for Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal.  [LAUGHTER]  We applaud and recommend that.  It is something which is very good.

Lastly, I want to say, Mr Chairman, that it would be good if the Minister could do everything in his power to ensure that those towns that start with the letter "N", that he should remove the letter "N", because the name "Natal" no longer exists on its own.  In fact Natal is now together with KwaZulu.  It must be changed in all the places so that we do not think that there is discrimination and favouritism towards the name "Natal".  The name that should be left after the changes is KwaZulu-Natal.  Thank you, sir.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs to address the House for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  It is actually really wonderful to be able to stand up here with some bouquet for a change.  I would like to sincerely congratulate the Minister on the reports that have been put out by himself and the Department, the displays, everything that he has shared with us which is very valuable.  This is the kind of thing that we expect to have from our Ministers.  I would like to say a big thank you and well done for that.

Lest we think it is all American razzmatazz and PRO, I was particularly interested in your annexure at the back of your report where you actually stated what was promised, what was delivered and the next steps to take.  I thank you for that because it makes it very easy for us to be able to see what you have done, what you plan to do, where you are going and so on.  I think it has been money extremely well spent.

Through no fault of your own, it is of great concern to me that you do not have enough funds in your budget to actually carry out the repairs of the networks of roads that we have because it does lead to economic development.

I must say that yesterday, I was a little bit disappointed when the Premier did not pick up when I mentioned that we need to have a macro development strategy for KwaZulu-Natal.  Your data here actually just highlights this issue where you said that 46% of the roads identified served schools, 18% served clinics and only 13% served both schools and clinics.

If we get together and we develop a clinic and a school and a road and a welfare pay point and maybe the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism puts up a section for informal traders and we develop a market, somebody is going to come and build a shop there and some development is going to take place.  I think there is a great need for macro development planning and in fact the roads are the very lifeline of macro development planning.  Without a road you actually cannot have any access.

You know, just when we read reports about clinics where somebody had to be transferred to hospital, a seriously ill person, and they had to be taken in a wheelbarrow from the clinic to a road where an ambulance could come in, because there was nothing there for them, is very serious.  I know that in this year you have sincerely tried to address that situation.

Just one last thing I would like to say about the taxi industry.  When you say here that they spend R2,2 million on petrol, R6 million on services and R45 million on tyres.  This is a huge money generating industry and I would like to just pose a rhetorical question.  I know that you personally cannot answer it.  I wonder how many of these taxi operators are registered taxpayers and how much tax comes back to develop the roads which they use so often?  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Can we hear Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, before the next speaker speaks.  Would you accept an oral amendment to this budget, within my rights so I could follow it up in writing, because I could not do it after the Minister speaks?  In that column that refers to the emolument of the Ministry in the light of the high praises I am going to propose that it be doubled.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, you missed your chance to do that, Mr Rajbansi, when you had a chance to speak.  Mr Roy Ainslie please, to address the House for 14 minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  I find myself in the same difficulty that the hon Mr Motala found himself in earlier on.  With such a comprehensive report, so neatly bound it is difficult to choose issues to discuss which have not been very adequately dealt with in the report.  However, there are certain issues which are raised in the report which I would like to refer to.

First, I think I would like to take issue with both hon Mr Gwala and the hon Mr Mthiyane regarding their references to lack of progress and their criticism of the Department's policy with regard to the taxi industry.

I believe that the Department is following perfectly the solution to solving that problem via the registration office, via the entire registration process, via mediation.  I believe we are already seeing those efforts bearing fruit in this Province, because already there is a reduction, in fact in a lot of the conflict in this Province, with regard to taxi violence.

As I say, there are several issues which are raised in the budget which I would like to refer to.  The first regards the budget shortfall of R89 million which several speakers have referred to.  It is a very serious shortfall especially with regard to programme two, because it seriously affects both the construction of new roads and maintenance of existing road infrastructure.

As a result of this budget deficit in programme two, only 200 kilometres of some 6 241 kilometres of black top road requiring resurfacing and resealing will in fact be able to be resealed during the year.  I recall the hon Mr Edwards who was speaking in this debate last year.  He drew our attention to a United Nations' study which showed the rising costs resulting in the failure to maintain existing road infrastructure.  I believe the old adage applies, a stitch in time saves nine.  I would agree with previous speakers that we need urgently to address the problem of the lack of funding when it comes to maintaining our roads.

Now the Minister and his Department are to be commended for not taking their budget allocation lying down.  They have actively explored other possible sources of revenue.  The Minister in particular in using anger, in using persuasion, in using determination, in using diplomacy has almost single-handedly got an extra R100 million out of the Cabinet for his Department.

There is only one department in my view which is more important than the Department of Transport and that is the Department of Environment.  I want to suggest that the Department of Environment, which has become the Cinderella Department in this Province, actually either adopt the tactics employed by the Minister in getting additional funding, or actually adopt the Minister and get the Minister to be a consultant for the Department of Environmental Affairs to increase their budget.  [LAUGHTER]

The Portfolio Sub-committee established a task force last year to examine additional sources of funding.  The task force needs to become actively involved in some of the schemes and the approaches that the Department is exploring.  Several of these have been mentioned in this debate, other schemes of additional funding have been mentioned in previous debates.

Some of these include the incremental annual increase in motorcar licence fees, and there has been widespread support in my view for the announcement that licence fees are to be increased by 25%.  I have no doubt that if the public is properly informed as they were properly informed in this instance, they will support the need to pay for transport infrastructure.  They will do so.  It is a question of proper communication, proper information.

Another idea which has floated around debates over the last few years, regarding increased funding is provincial toll roads and a dedicated fuel levy.  In my view the task force established by the Portfolio Committee requires to examine these issues and come up with some suggestions possibly in the next debate.

Members have again referred to the ongoing problems of the damage caused to our roads by heavy motor vehicles.  I believe the hon Mr Waugh referred to that and I think the hon Mr Volker also referred to that particular problem.

The Road Traffic Inspectorate in the Province is to be commended for their continued vigilance with regard to overloaded heavy vehicles.  They are responsible for approximately 85% of all heavy vehicle overload tests in the whole of South Africa.

We have pointed out before that damage caused by axle loads that exceed the legal limit increases out of all proportion to the load.  For example, an axle carrying twice the legal limit causes 18 times more damage than one legal axle load.  The efforts of the Inspectorate are commendable, but they are of their own insufficient to significantly reduce the problem.  Other additional measure are also required.  I have made notes listening to the debate today. Several suggestions have come up in fact as to how to deal with this problem.

One speaker suggested that the level of enforcement of the regulations relating to axle overload be increased significantly in other provinces especially Gauteng and the Free State.  This transport comes from Gauteng through the Free State to us.  Let us do the monitoring of the overloading at source and not wait to do it en route or at destination.

Another speaker mentioned a possible increase in applicable fines in this connection.  Another suggestion was an appropriate education campaign directed at the relevant business sector in this industry.  Then a long term solution that has also been mooted at various Portfolio Committee meetings is the revival of rail for long distance haulage.  I believe lots can be done especially in that regard, by improving the whole rail system and getting some of the haulage onto rail and off the roads.

Another topic that members have referred to and the Minister deals with it extensively in his report is the question of road safety, which I would like also perhaps to deal with just very briefly.

Causes of road accidents are usually grouped under three headings.

1.	Road environment;
2.	The road user; and 
3.	The vehicle itself.

British research has shown that it is the human factor, the road user that is present in 95% of all road accidents.  The same study found that in 65% of road accidents the human factor was judged to be the sole cause of the accident.

Now it is precisely this factor that the Department has addressed since 1995 and which the current Project Victoria also seeks to address.  In one of the Minister's reports he reports that there has in fact since 1995 been a 30% decrease in road fatalities.  We wish to commend the Department for the initiatives they have taken to bring this about.

We still have a long way to go before we get death off our roads.  Figures issued by the Department of Transport in this Province indicates that in the ten weeks, beginning Sunday 23 February and ending on Sunday 4 May, 284 people have died on the Province's roads.  During the same period 830 persons have been seriously injured.

Now in addition to the human tragedy of mothers, fathers, children sometimes entire families being wiped out or injured in road accidents, there are also serious economic implications in such casualties.  In 1985 the CSIR estimated that the cost to South Africa of road accidents was R2,5 billion.  That was in 1985, 12 years ago.

I have asked for updated figures on that study.  I have not yet received those but I am bound to predict that the 2,5 billion has possibly almost doubled.  This is pure waste to the economy.

Now the implementation of accident reducing measures such as Project Victoria, which the Minister has dealt with at length in his addendums, should receive high investment priority and the support of this House.

Those are the main items that I have chosen from the Minister's tabled report and also from the contributions of members.  I would like to say that I, and I am quite sure all the other members have no hesitation whatsoever in congratulating the Minister on his report and in supporting this budget.  Thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Ainslie.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Mvelase who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR V V MVELASE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, my speech will focus on road safety where I have noticed that the hon Minister has done the job well.

I wish to commend and appreciate the hon Minister's report which informed us of the greatest achievements of his Department.  I not only appreciate his speech, I also praise his dedication towards improving the performance of the traffic officers who have shown a great improvement in road safety in our Province.

The Department of Transport is a very important Department and a very difficult one to maintain.  The person who heads it needs to be careful and alert and see that no disaster occurs on the roads, so the lives of people will be saved.

I have been watching the performance of traffic officers, after listening to the Minister broadcasting his ambition over the radio.  His dedication and desire to solve the problems of his Department is very much appreciated, although there is not very much difference in the high accident rate.  The Easter holidays accident rate was better than previous years.

I am also pleased to see traffic officers treating all races equally.  Before there was a lot of discrimination.  Traffic officers were only harassing black drivers and ignoring reckless white drivers.

Black vehicles roadworthy certificates were sometimes suspended for minor faults.  The rotten body cars of whites were overlooked by the traffic officers, they went after black cars with beautiful bodies to find minor faults and charge them.  Our people had no option.  They started bribing these traffic officers to keep their vehicles running, as most of our people are earning their living with those vehicles.

I also wish to commend the Minister again for his dedication to solving taxi wars which has caused many deaths in the Province, but it is not enough.  I think he must put more pressure on it because people are still dying.

The taxi industry is the only black South African business which provided our unemployed people with job facilities in big numbers.  The Minister should try his best to strengthen the taxi industry and correct their wrongdoings.

Although I strongly support the operation of the taxi industry, I disagree with the fares they are charging the commuters.  I know they have no option due to the escalation of the petrol price and parts.  In view of high petrol and diesel prices our people are paying exorbitant fares to reach their place of work.

In some areas, especially in the rural areas where there are settlements, that are far from the towns, which was created by the cruel ~apartheid~ National Government, our people are paying R14,00 to R16,00 return per day and yet they are getting R50,00 wages per week.  Surely something must be done about this.

I have got a proposal to put, in order to reduce such costs.  I propose that where there are existing railway lines, worker's trains must be introduced because trains sell monthly tickets which are much cheaper.  The areas where such worker's trains could be introduced are the following.  Charlestown, Newcastle, Ladysmith, Mooi River to Pietermaritzburg, Glencoe, Dundee, Vryheid, Ulundi, Richards Bay, Paulpietersburg and Piet Retief.

The introduction of the worker's trains could reduce the rate of unemployment.  Spoornet could employ ticket clerks, ticket examiners, cleaners and train drivers.  I hope this proposal will be considered by the Department of Transport.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, when I come to the issues of roads in the rural areas, the truth is this Department is working indeed, but I who live in the rural areas, I have not seen that they are doing anything.

Indeed, everything that we have at the present moment was that which was done by that old Government of KwaZulu.  Even these bridges that are being opened, are bridges which had been planned by the Government of KwaZulu.

As I speak, there is a question which is going to be asked here.  There have long been requests that there should be a bridge, and the stock reply was that, "There was no money, there was no money".  Now we have our own Government, especially the National Government.

This is our Government.  Indeed there is a need for the hon member to make efforts to talk to his colleague, the hon Mr Maharaj, at National level, that he must please assist us with money.  The reason for this is that KwaZulu-Natal was being deprived of money because it refused to take independence.

Those that took independence they were given money, such as the Transkei.  So, colleagues, there it is, the truth is indeed, we must not bluff ourselves and say that we have done the work in the rural areas.  No work has been done.  We still need money to fix the roads.  The roads are bad in the rural areas.

You have done very good work.  I applaud you, you work indeed.  You work with speed, ~Manzankosi~.  Your work is very good, but, my brother, you must not be quick to tell the people that something has happened.  You must ask for money to build roads.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Mvelase.  Finally, I wish to call upon the hon Minister to respond.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I must thank the House.  I appreciate very much the comments that have been made.  They have been most heart rendering.  I do not think I have a lot of things to comment about.  I do not want to keep the House too long here, but perhaps I will just make a few comments.

The first one will perhaps be to the hon Mr Gwala.  I usually take what he says very seriously, usually it is well considered, but he made a very ill-considered comment when he talked about partisan roads.  That is one thing we do not have in this Province, certainly since 1994.  We do not have IFP roads, we do not have ANC roads.

AN HON MEMBER:  You have "National" roads.  [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  The establishment of transport forums was precisely to remove the decision of where the road is going to be, away from an official, certainly away from the Minister to the community itself.

I would like to demonstrate this to Mr Gwala on 22 May.  I want him to be my special guest, where 29 of the transport fora will be assembled at the DHI Hall in Durban.  You will see for yourself and they will be speaking for themselves.  ~Amakhosi~ will be there.  If you say they are all ANC it is fine, there is no problem with that.  You will see for yourself where the transport forum speaks for themselves, on how they prioritise roads and where money goes and how that is distributed.  I think we should never have any doubts about this.

It is for that very reason that when we talk about roads and transport in general, and you table a matter in the Provincial Cabinet, the Provincial Cabinet has got no problem.  That is why I got the support that I had from the Premier and from the whole Cabinet to actually have this extra R100 million to do exactly this.  The Premier himself will be there.  I have heard some rumours from the secretaries that he might not be, but I take what he said to me himself, he will be there.

Coming to the taxi problem.  I think I must assure Mr Mthiyane that the question of taxi violence is uppermost in our efforts, particularly the Durban Station one.  I welcome any support I can get from whatever influence that can bear on the taxi industry.

In the particular case of Durban Station it is a very, very difficult matter.  I have requested the assistance of Minister C J Mtetwa who is a very skilled negotiator, who is with me in dealing with the matter of Durban Station.  We have met both groups.  In the first one Mr Mthiyane himself was there and after that it was a question of one side being ready to talk now, the other side not coming forward.  I had a four hour meeting on Saturday with the other side, and they responded on Monday and said yes, they are now willing to have the bilateral talks.

The bilateral talks between those who are inside Durban Station and those who are outside, are in fact going to be taking place.  Both sides have now pledged that they are going to meet and I believe that is major progress.  I will attend those talks.  We are going to adjust our diaries with Minister Mtetwa because both of us must attend those talks.  If Mr Mthiyane himself wants to be there you are most welcome.

We have also been assisted in the very difficult matter of Durban Station by ~Amakhosi~ of the Kranskop area, led by ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, not the hon Minister.  Seven ~Amakhosi~ have been attending and assisting us, because most of the people who have been killing each other come from that area.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!  [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Ja, there are too many Ngubanes.  So seven of the ~Amakhosi~ have actually come three times from that area, to sit with us the whole day under very difficult conditions, sometimes, people do not want to talk.  Sometimes people say anything they like and so forth and that one appreciates very much.

That demonstrates again that I certainly do not want to solve this matter single-handed.  I cannot.  We have enlisted all the support that we can get.  The people have been very, very forthcoming and the Cabinet has been very helpful in this matter.

So I think the wheels are turning.  As soon as we have adjusted our diaries, with Minister Mtetwa, I am sure early next week we are going to meet the two groups.

Then again of course, we are also having regional meetings.  At one time, out of sheer frustration I felt that I should just convene a meeting of all the taxi owners, in the same way that was done in Gauteng and North-Western Mpumalanga, to just ask them where do they want to take this industry.  Because when opportunities arise, not just for passenger transport, but for transport in general.

It is at that precise time that people start killing each other when we are open, giving assistance from the Government like in the case of Durban, like where we talk about co-ops for instance.  Land is going to be bought in the centre of Durban for the taxi industry for the first co-op.  That land is going to be the only piece of land, quite a huge area, that you can point out even if you have your usual African/American friends, who can come here and say, "Show me something that is owned by black people".  That is the only thing that you would be able to show, other than some small boutiques here and there.

So even as that is happening the violence is rising much higher.  People want to slaughter each other.  It becomes quite a hurting thing because if, in the rise of the Afrikaner capital for instance, the Louis Luyts, the du Plessises and the Rembrandts started killing each other at that time when the National Party was applying affirmative action to SMMEs, Afrikaner SMMEs, and they started killing each other, there would be no Afrikaner capital today.

So it is that problematic area.  It needs all our efforts to deal with this.  We of course abandoned the idea of a huge meeting of all owners because there was no telling whether they would draw guns right there in those meetings.  Instead we then resorted to regional meetings.  We have had one meeting in Ladysmith that covered the areas of Newcastle as far as Vryheid, and all those areas, and it was a very successful meeting.  We have had a recent one in Port Shepstone to cover that area.  We will be having another one at Empangeni to cover that huge area including Eshowe and so forth.  We welcome the members of the Legislature to be part of those meetings, because as many wise words as possible are required in those meetings.

~Inkosi~ Mathaba, I am happy about the names that you have given us.  It is very critical for members of the Legislature and particularly members of the transport forums to be able to report where policy is not being carried out.  It is not like before, where a clerk or a driver of a grader became the alpha and omega.  People should now know that these are community facilities and if they are not being used for the community, steps should be taken and steps will be taken, so that we will be able to investigate this.

Well, I do not know about toll plazas.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Toll plazas, it is only in the later legislation, in the middle of this year where we will have a law allowing us to establish our own provincial tolls.  At the moment all the tolls are National.  I cannot really answer why it is cheaper to go to Pietermaritzburg than to go via Mtunzini, but I do not think it has got anything to do with Ulundi.

That about Ulundi [Ulundi is regarded as a gogga].  I do not think anybody has got hang ups about Ulundi any more.  So I think the fears that people have that such and such a thing is not happening or it is happening because it is Ulundi, I do not think anybody has got those hang ups any more.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  This is very serious.  [LAUGHTER]  My wife Zama Carol is sitting right there.  [LAUGHTER]  She knows that she has got a hell of a good husband.  [LAUGHTER]  So I do not think that that is a problem.  Indeed we are busy doing the Eshowe/Melmoth road to open it up much more, even with the limited funds that are there.

The project of personalised numberplates is going very well.  In the first 13 days we had more than 700 applications.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where is S'bu No 1?

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  It is coming.  To date we have had 1 060 applications and we have approved 1 025.  The applications that we do not approve are those that have got insulting words and all those sort of things.  You get quite a fair number of those.  So we reject those and those that will insult other people's religions and so forth.  The amount that we are going to get out of the approved applications would be R1,59 million.  So it is doing very well in the short period.

I think I must really just thank the House for the comments that have been made.  I especially want to thank the Cabinet where there exists very, very good collegiality.  We support each other in the Cabinet and I also want to thank the Premier who is also Minister of Finance for having been able to listen to our plea for additional funds, which are going to make a difference.

The difference like I have said, in terms of community access roads we started with R3 million to R8 million to R25 million.  We have made a difference with R25 million and with R100 million we are going to make a difference that Umzala kaMvelazi is going to be able to see.  Indeed we do want to make a difference by 1999, if Ilembe can wake up now, in 1999 he should not be able to recognise most of the parts of KwaZulu-Natal.  At the moment he still can.

Now let me end by also expressing a special thanks to the Portfolio Committee, who have been very, very constructive in their assisting this Department.  To thank the members of the Department who have been unstinting.  They receive calls, we call each other at eleven at night and whatever, it has never been a problem to them.  So I appreciate that very much.

Most of all, of course, I want to thank the ministerial staff very, very untiring, Nonhlanhla, Cathy de Villiers, Vicky Cunliffe, Ranjeni Munusamy, George Mahlalele.  There is a very bright young man Brian Mbanjwa who is very keen in this rural road construction.  He is the very keen.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  You see now there is evidence all around.  So all those people are the very key in the Department and they are very untiring in their efforts.  I would like to thank you all and also of course the support that we have received from the Director General in all our efforts.  Let me not take more of your time, Mr Chairperson.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  Before we adjourn the House I just have one announcement to make.  It concerns the Speaker of the House.  He has been operated on.  Flowers have been sent to him as we decided yesterday.  We understand that he is at Parklands Hospital, but that is still to be confirmed.  When he phoned the hon Mrs Cronje he said he was at Parklands Hospital.  We will confirm that tomorrow.  That is one announcement.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Can I just invite members of the Legislature and stakeholders in the Department of Transport to a cocktail.  We will appreciate your presence there.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  From S A Breweries.  I am especially happy to see Professor Nyembe is with us here.  If I can do 10% of what he has done, I will be happy to die at that level.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  So all members are invited to a cocktail party.  Where is it going to be?  You have not told us the venue, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  At 172 Burger Street.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, nobody is above the law.  Well, that is one announcement I wanted to make and before I adjourn the House may I give a chance to the Premier to make whatever announcements he might have, seeing that he was not with us this morning.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for that opportunity.  I had sent my apologies to the Chief Whip.  I was a guest speaker at the graduation ceremony of the Mangosuthu Technikon in the Durban City Hall.  The subject matter was the impact of science and technology for an emerging economy such as ours.  So I thought that was an important opportunity to address some of those issues.

As far as the rest of the debate, I am sorry that I missed my colleague's morning budget presentation, but knowing the direction that he is taking through Cabinet work, I am very happy with that direction.  I am quite certain that the House supported him.

I must just express real deep appreciation to Minister Ndebele, for the way he has handled the issue of rural development because community access roads are the heart of rural development.  We give him all the support.

As for the money, it was not a hat trick at all.  We had been working on means of getting money for the Department way before the date of the budget.  We had looked at several options and Treasury, ultimately came up with a resolution that the money that is raised through the new licensing system be kept within transport, to be used for these types of projects and of course, we are pledged as Cabinet, that we will find additional money.  Of course, the R158 million will be part of that solution.

So we are looking very hard at effective ways of raising project finance.  We are talking to the private sector.  We are talking to DBSA.

With the new process of budgeting countrywide which the Budget Council has decided upon, we have undertaken not to borrow for the 1997/98 financial year.  So we are not going to use our borrowing powers.

However, we will have an income tax surcharge which will defray that disadvantage of not being able to borrow.  It will grow from 1% and it will reach a ceiling of 7%.  These are the things that are in the pipeline.  Nobody is going to be disadvantaged contrary to whatever people choose to speculate on.

We will be constrained because of the macro economic realities of this country, that we must reduce our budget deficit.  It was 5,1% last year.  It must be 4% this year and next year we are committed to 3,5.  Those are the macro economic realities that cause the budget constraints that we are all experiencing.

For me as Premier, it is really painful to see urgent social needs not being addressed, because of the huge public debt that we inherited from the previous Government.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I wish to thank the hon members and the public for their keen interest in this budget debate and wish to adjourn the House till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Could the hon members please make sure that they are here before nine because we have half a day tomorrow for debates.  Thank you very much.  The House adjourns.

	HOUSE ADJOURNS AT 17:55 UNTIL
	9:00 ON FRIDAY, 9 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - FIFTH SITTING DAY
	FRIDAY, 9 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:10 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:
  
2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

There is just one announcement.  As promised yesterday, we will keep members updated on the condition of the Speaker, I have to now report that the Speaker was admitted officially yesterday and we are reliably informed that he is likely to undergo a minor operation today.  We have urged all members and we still continue to urge all members, those who have time, to pop in and see the Speaker.  He is at the Parklands Hospital as we have advised.  That is the only announcement.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I urge our members to remember our Speaker in our prayers today, for a successful operation and a speedy recovery.

I would also like to, on behalf of this House, condemn in the strongest terms possible, as well as convey to the family of the deceased councillor, Mr Rodney van der Byl, our absolute rejection of violence in politics.  It is a setback for the good work that has been carried out between the members of this House in ensuring peace, in ensuring political tolerance and in ensuring normalisation of our democratic process.  This is a real setback.  We regret it and all leaders of parties must be united in ensuring that this evil is rooted out.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I have the honour to table the report on Agriculture of KwaZulu-Natal for the period 1 January 1996 to 31 December 1996.  This report is supplementary to my budget speech for agriculture which I will be presenting on Monday, 12 May 1997.

It is necessary to table this report for perusal by the members so that they can participate actively in an informed debate when discussing my budget speech.  To this end I have purposely kept my budget speech as short as possible to allow adequate time for constructive debate.

I would like to thank my predecessor, the Premier Dr Ngubane, who, as Minister of Agriculture, gave invaluable direction to the Department.  I also wish to commend the secretary, the senior management and all the staff of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture for the loyal service they have rendered to the people of this Province, particularly in addressing the need for home, food and security.

I would also like hon members to note that this report is published in the Queen's language and also in the language of heaven, Zulu.  So members have a choice of whichever one they want. [Thank you Mr Speaker].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister, for a proper and very sound tabling of your report.  Mr Rehman, do I have it that you are tabling a report or paper?  No.  Thank you.  There being no further tabling of reports.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there are a series of meetings of the National Council of Provinces in Cape Town next week.  Somewhere we are sending special delegates to vote.  Somewhere we are sending special delegates to partake in various budget votes.  The House needs to move a resolution as to who the special delegates are.

There are some ten resolutions to move, designating who these individuals are.  In order to save the time of the House we have tabled the ten resolutions.  They are on each member's desk indicating who the speakers will be on the different votes.

I would like to move these resolutions as a block.  They will obviously still need to be signed by yourself.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Minister.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  May I point out that one of the block resolutions is in fact incorrect.  I have no knowledge that I will be speaking on the budget vote Trade and Industry.  I think there has been a mistake and that it should be budget vote Housing.  If we take the resolution in this form it in fact will be an invalid resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  How do we rectify that?  Can we deal with that one later or do we amend it now?  Mr Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, these resolutions were prepared by the NCOP Secretariat, so I would not like to start amending them as I stand.  I wonder, with your permission, Mr Speaker, whether you would give us an opportunity later on in the morning to recheck this and then I will move it again.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What I was just trying to establish is do we want to move those that are correct now and perhaps leave the one that has got some problems or do we want to just retain all of them as a block for moving later?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would personally prefer to move the lot later on because it could get very confusing, with your permission, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will then allow that we defer the moving of this resolution until these are checked, but that will be done before the end of today's sitting.  Thank you.  We were on point 7, Notices of Bills or Motions.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE has heard over many years about the plight of the 165 000 shad fishermen of KwaZulu-Natal and the allegations that were made by the National Party at the time in the former Provincial Council that the workings of the Smith Commission that recommended the ban was heavily rigged.  It is further noted that the ban punishes the subsistence fishermen when the real culprits appear to be the commercial fishermen.

	THEREFORE it be resolved that the relevant Minister be requested to appoint a one person commission under the chairpersonship of the hon Justice John Broome to investigate and report as to whether shad fishing be decommercialised and be regarded as recreation fishing.

I may say that this is the last time I will be placing this notice.  The next programme will be a march to the sea to catch shad during the banned season, like Gandhi did.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Any further notices of Bills or motions?  That item having been finalised we then move to the orders of the day.

8.	INTERPELLATIONS AND QUESTIONS

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES IN VOLUME 6 1997

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We then now go on to the next item on our Order Paper and that is item 8.2.  Item 8.2 is a motion.  I will call upon Advocate Schutte to open the debate on the motion for 11 minutes.

MOTION:

	That Parliament discusses the worsening crime situation and considers urgent measures to effectively combat the crime wave and bring back normality to South Africa and KwaZulu-Natal.


ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, at the outset I would like to thank the hon Whips for allowing this debate and I therefore move the motion standing in my name.

A debate on crime is a crucial debate, because the high crime rate is the biggest social crisis confronting South Africa at this stage.  It is not necessary for me to argue that statement.  I believe we all agree with that statement.  Indeed, the World Health Organisation, has branded this country as the most murderous country in the world, and with a murder rate of 11 times the world average, that is no wonder.

What I would like to argue, is that this crisis is so serious and is so urgent that we need National solutions supported by all, solutions which transcends political differences.  I believe that that is the only way in which we will really solve this problem.

For that reason, my appeal is that this debate will be a constructive debate, that we will argue and put forward solutions and not merely try and score political points.  That will also be my approach in this debate.

I am going to argue an anti-crime strategy which I believe, if it is implemented with determination, will put a stop to the crime wave.  This strategy has eight legs or requirements and I am going to refer to each and every one of them.

The first one and the most important one, is that we need a multi-party anti-crime strategy.  The crime wave is a National crisis.  It affects all our people from all communities, all walks of life and all political persuasions.  To be effective we need the support of all of South Africa.  The whole of South Africa must be united in the fight against crime.

The strategy should therefore be above party politics.  It should be perceived as being owned by all in South Africa and not by one or other of the political parties.  By all the law abiding citizens of South Africa.

We therefore need an anti-crime strategy which is drawn up by all the parties with inputs from all interested groups.  The implementation of this should also be overseen and monitored by a multi-party commission.

I believe the biggest crisis can only be resolved if it is taken out of the political sphere.  May I remind this hon House that we have an example in this regard.  In the run up to the 1994 election all the parties jointly agreed to a Peace Accord.  That Peace Accord played a major role in bringing down violence before the elections.

The second leg of this strategy should be, that this strategy should be a credible and comprehensive strategy.  It can only be a credible strategy supported by all, if it convinces the man in the street that it will make an impact.  He will only be convinced if this strategy deals in an in-depth way with all the aspects that is involved.  There are no simple solutions.

In the 11 minutes allocated to me it will be impossible to deal with them all.  There must be more than 60 separate issues that must be dealt with, but may I just refer to a few.

First of all, it must deal with the strengthening of the police force.  In this regard it is crucial that the police force also be seen to be above political and racial conflict.  To involve the police in these conflicts is not only a disservice to them but is also undermining the fight against crime.

This comprehensive strategy should also deal with the expeditious administration of justice by the courts and everything that is linked to that.  It should deal with specialist courts, with effective witness protection schemes, with sentencing and also with the limitation of the granting of parole.

If I can single out one aspect in this regard, then it is the question of a delay in the court process.  If there is one thing that undermines the confidence in the courts, then it is when serious matters takes 9 and 12 and 18 months before it is heard.  Then people lose confidence in the judicial system.

The third leg and a very important leg as well, is that this strategy should be strong.  Resolute implementation is called for.  Worldwide experience has shown that only strong and resolute actions against criminals has the effect of reducing crime in the short term.  Half-hearted, whimpish implementation will not have the required effect.

It must be made clear, not only to the criminal, but also to John Citizen that crime will not pay and will not be tolerated.  I am sad to say that in this regard, matters have already progressed so far that only the reintroduction of capital punishment, will convince the man in the street and the criminal, that the State is really serious about stamping out crime.

The fourth leg of this strategy I believe is that crime should be criminalised.  Crime is crime is crime.  Crime can no longer be rationalised.  Some of the poorest countries and societies in the world have the lowest crime rates and most of the most heinous crimes of murder, robbery and hijacking are not committed by destitute or hungry people, they are committed by organised criminal syndicates who are intent only on self-enrichment.

I also believe that we should take a leaf out of the success of the so-called broken window policy, that has been followed in New York.  The emphasis of this policy is that even the most minor of crimes should be pursued with vigour because they in many cases lead to the major crimes.  This policy has had remarkable success in New York, in bringing down the general crime rate.  I believe that we as a Province should implement such a policy in our Province.

The fifth leg is that a healthy family life is a healthy society.  It is generally accepted that the main reason for the upsurge in violent crime worldwide, in the last few decades, has been the disintegration of family life.

That being the case, there must be an appreciation that coercive measures, although important, have a limited impact.  A stable law abiding and productive society will in the long term, only be brought about by the strengthening of healthy family life.  Society can only be as strong and as sound as its basic unit, the family.  If we want long term stability this will have to be given priority.

Then the sixth leg, and that is very important in our Province, sadly so, is that the underlying political causes of crime should be addressed expeditiously and transparently.  I believe that there is not a single party in this House which will not have appreciation for this.  We in this Province have had too much political turmoil and violence.  The murder in Richmond yesterday, is a sad reminder of what we can do without in this Province.

I believe that what we need in this Province, particularly in this regard, is a standing judicial commission, much like the Goldstone Commission, which can investigate expeditiously and transparently allegations of political or security force involvement in violence.

The final Constitution specifically makes this possible and we should avail ourselves of this opportunity.  Political parties or leaders or security forces, who are involved in violence must know that their actions are going to be exposed by such a body.

The seventh leg is that there should be a distinction between short and long term goals.  It is crucial for the credibility of this strategy that it should show results as soon as possible.  Therefore there should be this distinction so that there can be, as far as the short terms goals are, results.  Once a form of success can be shown it will create a climate for further success.  Success breeds success.

The final leg is an active involvement by the public.  No strategy will be successful without the active involvement of the public, not only for the detection of the criminals but also in creating an atmosphere of intolerance against criminal behaviour.

An imaginative anti-crime public awareness campaign will have to be undertaken, to mobilise the public as a major force against crime.  But the watchword must be credibility.  The public will not be interested to support something if they are not convinced that it is a worthwhile programme and that it will work because the State this time really means business.

What I have given you is the broad outline of a strategy of some 73 pages developed by experts over a period of three months.  I will be the first to say that this is not the final word and that it certainly can be improved.  But, I stand by the view that if it is implemented and particularly if we have a multi-party strategy as is suggested, then it will have an impact.

Our time to conquer crime is running out.  People are becoming desperate and losing hope.  I am confident that we can turn the tide against crime around, but then we must all join hands in drafting and implementing an anti-crime strategy as suggested.  An anti-crime strategy that belongs to all the people of this country.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  I now call upon Mr Ntombela for six minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am thankful that I am speaking after the person who has just spoken from the National Party.  I think that this matter that we are discussing this morning is a delicate one.  It is a matter regarding crime which is rife in this Province of ours, of KwaZulu-Natal.

Crime is not only rife here, but it is rife throughout the whole of South Africa.  I think that as an old man I need to separate these issues into two.  There is violent crime, such as robbery where violence is used, or rape where violence is used.  Whatever crime you commit where violence is used, I need to separate that into two issues.

Then there is crime where a person merely uses speech and his mind.  That is very bad crime, because that is crime that causes the criminal to benefit, and this leads to this country becoming ungovernable.

I am happy because there is my brother JJ.  He will agree with me that there is this type of crime where the brain and speech is used, but the hands are not used, but still crime is committed there.

Chairman, let me talk about the killing of people.  When I say people I am talking about everybody that is here on this continent who are killed while they are innocent.  The reason for all this is because the criminals are hiding in parties.  Let me make an example by saying how many women have been raped?  If you have a wife you know full well that if you are not at home you are only grateful and thankful when you hear that she has arrived at home, because of the crime that exists here.

In the Department of the Minister of Development, companies bring work and development.  Those are places where vehicles are hijacked, those are the vehicles that work there.  Then the companies lose heart and go, and there is no development.  That is crime which is committed by the use of hands.

This type of crime, Chairman, that I am talking about, where the brain is used, JJ would agree with me in this regard.  I feel upset myself when certain things happen such as at Richmond where a Councillor was killed, and we are very sad because of this killing, just as we are very sad whenever a human being is killed.  We are not merely sad when a councillor of Richmond is killed.

Then somebody of a particular party, such as my man Dumisani, who is an hon member here, says this matter must be in the hands of the National Minister, that is the hon Mufamadi.  He leaves the Provincial Minister and he does not say that ~Inkosi~ Ngubane must be the person who conducts an investigation or that a commission should be chosen which will investigate this matter of the killing of people at Richmond, such as the killing of the councillor.

That is crime of the mind because it undermines the Minister, because it happens to be an IFP Minister.  Then it is said that no attention is paid to him because he will not do that.  Then the divine is divine, Mr Chairman, and they say it means that the IFP is being discriminatory.

Why should it be said that this matter should be given to the National Minister?  Why should this matter not start with the Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane?  What I am saying is that this matter should be looked at, because this is crime of the mind.

I am speaking well, because JJ will agree with me, and anybody else will agree with me that this is not the correct way to go about things, to circumvent the Minister who has to deal with safety, and then it is said that Mufamadi should be fetched.  What is Mufamadi going to do?

Does Mufamadi know where Gengeshi is?  Does Mufamadi know where Magoda is?  The Minister, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, is left out.  He is the person who is in charge of the Department which should be going there.  I say, colleagues, if we want to end crime let us talk about this issue, and examine it, that this should not be done in this Province of ours.

I come back to the issue of robbery.  I am certain that there is no one who does not know that from the very start of the great campaign of sanctions against this country, that those sanctions caused crime.  It caused people not to be able to go to work.

It caused the situation where, when people saw oranges in a window, the person said they should be stolen.  It caused a situation that when you saw somebody carrying a bag coming out of a bank one thought of robbing that person, because of unemployment.  Simba Chips closed down.  Colleagues, there are no industries today, people are unemployed.

Why does this Province of ours not bring back those industries such as Simba Chips?  Why is it being said that the casinos must be closed down?  Casinos should be opened and allowed to work here.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute more.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Oh, sir, I hear you.  I think that we, as the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, must ask the National Government to give us the power to rule here in this Province.  It should not be the case that when something happens here that one should look as far away as Cape Town.  When will you get to Cape Town?  Meanwhile you are leaving a Minister here.

This Government must be given the power.  The hon Minister Ngubane must be the person who has the power to take decisions.  He must be able to take decisions without having to look to the National Government.  If you are the head of your home, sir, as adults, I would not have a situation where another man was in control of my home.  It is also true that another man would not feed my wife.  I must do my own things so that it must be obvious that I have the power.

Let me end by saying, colleagues, I am asking for support in this thing.  Leave the National Ministers at their level.  Let us use our Ministers.  If we want the hon Minister Mkhize, if we are talking about health, let us talk to the Minister and forget about going to look for Bhengu, and ask him to come and fix up our things here.  Let us fix up our own things.  Thank you, Chairman.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon member.  I now call upon Mr N V E Ngidi.  The hon member has seven minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I take it that the hon Minister Mufamadi is the Minister of Safety and Security in South Africa.  KwaZulu-Natal is part of South Africa.

Crime in our Province and indeed countrywide is a high priority matter.  It is a matter that as elected public officials, we need to be constantly seized with.  We need to come out with clear plans and programmes to combat it.  It is essential that we uplift our people from the debilitating effects of crime.

The need to fight crime is not so much that it is widespread or it is beginning to affect communities hitherto protected, but that it has been with us for too long.

However, it is important that we are not hysterical about it.  We should take care that we do not press panic buttons and create an impression that we are faced with a hopeless situation because we are not.  Admittedly crime levels in this Province are high, but the war against it is not being lost.

In the annual report of the South African Police Services, KwaZulu-Natal, the former MEC for Safety and Security, Dr F T Mdlalose, had this to say:

	The crime situation during 1996 appears to have generally stabilised when compared to previous years.  For the period January to December 1996, there has been no major increase of crime on a monthly basis, which supports the statement that criminality has reached a plateau.

What the then Premier and MEC says is supported by the rest of the report commenting on crime prevention.  The report says:

	The most notable successes during the past year were reducing priority serious crimes by more than 3% and expanding sound partnerships.

Further on the report says:

	What is important to note is that murder has been reduced by 8,45%, attempted murder by 14,06%, armed robbery by 3,1%, robbery by 8,5%, theft of motor vehicle by 7,5% and theft out of motor vehicle by 7,5% when compared with 1995.  In the majority of the above crimes, expectations tabled in terms of the Police Plan were exceeded (reduction of serious crime by 5% was one of the objectives).

In spite of these promising figures, I would agree with those who hold the opinion that crime in the Province is at unacceptable levels.  It is necessary to consider those factors that militate against crime prevention, the removal of which would result in a crime-free Province which would then accelerate economic development and prosperity in this Province.

If the police service is serious about stopping crime they will have to act promptly when given information.  There are instances when the police are given evidence of commission of crimes on a platter but fail to act.  Eyewitnesses report to the police but still the police will say that they have no evidence.  This corrodes the trust and confidence that our people have in the police and lead to instances where communities refuse to co-operate with them because it is not worth it.

It is important to address the image our police have in the communities they serve.  It is important that the police do not create an impression that they are friends with criminals.  Being seen as a member of the police service, drinking in a shebeen with known criminals is a problem.  This becomes worse when there are incidents of disappearance of evidence where that particular policeman is stationed.

In crime detection and investigation the police must be seen as even-handed.  It cannot be gainsaid that our communities are divided, particularly according to political affiliation.  It is important therefore that the police create an image of being above these differences.  The police therefore must not only be non-partisan or impartial but must be seen to be so.

Police morale is one important factor.  We need as this Legislature to address those factors that erode police morale, such as poor equipment, poor working conditions.  We need to stop as political leaders to apply political pressure on the police, particularly, when we see their actions beginning to give our friends and supporters discomfort.

Confidence in the communities must be encouraged.  Our people must know that if they provide information their safety would not be compromised.  I therefore support what hon Advocate Schutte has suggested, the strengthening of witness protection schemes.  Secondly, the police, as I have already noted, must be seen to act promptly on information provided.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Only one minute left.

MR N V E NGIDI:  We need to look at measures that are going to take into account victims of crime.  Particularly, in this regard, urgent action is needed to ensure counselling and other measures to women and children who are victims of crime, particularly victims of sex abuse and other violent crimes.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  I now call upon Mr Nel and the hon member has five minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will not dwell today on the horrific incidents that we see, that we read about and that we know only too well around us daily.

AN HON MEMBER:  What about the attacks.

MR W U NEL:  I will not dwell on the statistics because it does not matter how many statistics we read in this chamber, the people outside there will tell you that it is bad and that it cannot continue the way that it is.

The Government's behaviour reminds me of the behaviour of a mouse, just before the snake strikes it becomes paralysed by fear and then it is caught.  It seems to me that the Governments response to crime is also one of paralysis.

We see a police force whose management is in a shambles.  Then we see the police National Minister squabbling with the commissioner in public.  We see an under-equipped and under-resourced staff with too few personnel.

Now I am not going to deal with National initiatives or anything of the kind today.  I want to just deal with two practical provincial strategies that I think we can adopt to make a real difference.

The first one relates to political parties and our behaviour and our responsibility to actually lead by example.  Until we accept this responsibility we waste our time.  Violent behaviour cannot be stamped out if parties do not act in an exemplary fashion.  Even today we find political parties tolerating violence by their own members.  We see it in Inchanga to this day.

Just recently we were involved in the saga of the no-go zone of Richmond, where certain members of the subcommittee were ridiculed.  We were told by the ANC that Richmond was a very happy community, that it was patently ridiculous to suggest that it was a no-go zone, but today we are told by the same ANC that it is a concentration camp.  Not on new information.  This is information that has been available for a year, two years, maybe five, maybe ten.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR W U NEL:  In fact what was going on there was frankly the ANC's political agenda for many years.  Now suddenly it is a concentration camp.

We cannot expect the public to take seriously laws that are made by Legislators who sit here, but outside are propagating the other agenda.  I want to make an earnest plea today, let us stop this Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde behaviour where parties can have one side, that is the respectable side, but at the same time have the other side which is the evil side, because we cannot proceed on that basis.

Enough of that.  The second proposal I want to make, and I want to address myself to the hon Minister who unfortunately is not here right now, the Minister Ngubane, but I am sure he will get the message.  I want to say to him that he should now involve himself night and day in his portfolio as Minister of Safety and Security in this Province.  One of the first and only practical suggestions I want to table today is that he should expand actively the police reserves because by doing so you can harness the talents, you can harness the initiative of citizens out on the streets.  People who have jobs, who have other responsibilities but have a wealth of experience to bring to the table.  If we can rope them in that will be of great assistance to our forces.

Perhaps even more importantly, I believe that the involvement of the public in the operations of local police stations will expose those police stations to public scrutiny.  It will force them to act properly and professionally and effectively.  It will force them to police in the way that they should.  We will know when they do not do it and we will know when they do.  We will be able to praise them when they go beyond the call of duty to protect us and we will be able to criticise them when in fact they are in dereliction of duty.

So with those two suggestions, the first one the plea to political parties, that until we clear our own House we battle in vain to talk to the public, and the second one is that we should involve the public in local policing functions to have a twofold effect; firstly, to make the force more effective and secondly, also to use the expertise that is available, I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I now call upon Mr Powell and the hon member has six minutes.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think it is common cause that crime is the greatest single challenge that faces our fledgling democracy.  In saying so, I would like to lend my support to those members who have expressed their condemnation of the killing of Rodney van der Byl in Richmond, and lend my support to our Premier's call for a speedy and prompt investigation into this killing.

I think that we have heard in this House various reasons offered for the crime wave which faces us and obviously a different emphasis is placed by different people from the various sides of this House, which is perhaps understandable.  I think there is common cause here that crime is something that we must stop talking about and start treating seriously.

I think that members will be aware that yesterday one of the daily newspapers carried banner headlines about the crime crackdown plan which the Provincial Commissioner announced, along with the provincial safety plan.  Reading the outline of the plan one sees very admirable goals being set for policing in the Province.  One also sees that a fairly extensive process of consultation was undertaken in achieving these goals.

I would, however, like to sound a note of concern on two levels.  The first one is that to my knowledge this Parliament, and in particular the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security's views were not canvassed, it was not presented with this plan before it was announced by the Provincial Commissioner.

I think that with the kind of weighty issues such as attacks on vulnerable rural communities, which have been raised in this House, I find it strange that this oversight has occurred.

The second obvious problem was the failure to invite our hon Minister and the Provincial Secretary to attend the launch of this Provincial Plan.  Once again the Commissioner in fact draws this anomaly to our attention, when he points out in his address, that the National plan was launched by the National Minister.  Now one wonders what the difference is when it comes to the provincial level, where the tail seems to be wagging the dog.

The kind of priorities which have been set in this plan are very laudable but I must sound a word of warning.  When we attended the briefing on the budget in Cape Town, Deputy Commissioner Chetty informed us that there was a problem in aligning the budget and the plan.

In other words, the provinces had identified priorities for policing but that the budgetary process was operating out of synchronization with the priorities.  He said that he felt that some of the priorities which we had set in our Province, for instance, were over-optimistic because no resources were available to match those priorities with financial allocations to the Province.

There are a few other valuable things which have been touched on by members in this debate.  One of them was Mr Ngidi's warning about political interference in the work of the police.  Here I think we must sound a very, very strong word of warning.  There is considerable evidence that members of this House make themselves guilty of direct political interference in investigations by the SAPS.  This is a process where we should exercise caution.  I think that we should recognise that the place for that kind of concern to be raised, is in this House and that political parties sending private delegations to see senior police officials to put pressure on them to influence the composition of investigation teams, the outcome of investigations is fundamentally incorrect.  The oversight role which Parliament plays gives them an adequate opportunity within the multi-party forum, to raise concerns and to ensure that the police are acting in an independent way.

I think that we need to send out a strong message and we need to practice what we preach, when we say political interference in policing affects the morale of the police, it interferes with the criminal justice system and the point which the hon Mr Nel made about Richmond is a case in point.

It is very significant that there was clear evidence that National policing units were in possession of considerable evidence, which could lead to the prosecution of people in the Richmond area, and this process was deliberately held back.  It was a case of the criminal justice system being massaged to suit the political agenda of one party.  We cannot afford that, we should be careful that in doing so we do not undermine the efficacy of the police.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon member.  I now call upon Mr Haygarth and the hon member has six minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I must give full support to my leader in respect of the need for a strategy to be set, particularly for this Province as a whole.

I think enough has been said that there is a variety of violence or different forms of violence, that we are dealing with and that strategy needs to deal with each one individually.  You cannot take this as a whole.

There is the economic violence, and I use in that description the sort of taxi violence where there is a protection of site of business.  There is the political violence which we are so familiar with and of which Richmond is a typical example.  Lastly, there is the criminal violence which is of tremendous concern to the man in the street.

The crucial role of the South African Police Services is undoubtedly required.  Their services need to be supported in full by us.  We have talked about the morale of the police force.

However, not only is there the dispute between the Minister and the National Commissioner, we have had discussion in the last few days in this House, a very strong representation about the lack of, what shall we term it, affirmative promotions in the police force.

That was one side of the picture and a number of pieces of paper were given to indicate that there was very little action in this regard.  If you saw the notices from POPCRU stuck on the walls of this House recently, saying that this affirmative action and the change must take place overnight.

Now there is a second side to that.  There have been a number of letters in the press recently reflecting those loyal members of the police force who have been in occupation for a long time, who have spent money on their education and upliftment to enable them to give a satisfactory service.

This policeman writing here says, "The policemen feel betrayed and depressed".  Because why?  Those people in the police force who have done their duty, who have taken the opportunity to improve and enhance their abilities, they are not getting promotion at all.

So there is a second side and it is affecting the morale of the police force substantially, when that type of thing is happening.  It needs to be given some consideration.

The second aspect is intimidation of police force members and the large number of policemen who have been killed in the course of their duty, is something of great concern.  That clearly came out in the Richmond investigation, where the local policemen are being intimidated by the local community, and that is something that has to be attended to.

Then arising from that Richmond committee, the Premier was requested and it had the full support of the Safety and Security Committee to establish a commission of inquiry.  Now there are those who will argue that this violence clearly goes far beyond Richmond.  One must weigh up whether a commission in Richmond is the right thing or whether we need a provincial commission, similar to the Goldstone Commission, and probably there is a lot of merit having regard to the continuation of violence in that respect.  We need this for the people, the public to see the concern and that that concern is being addressed.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I want to talk in terms of political violence and there are others who have basically begun to address this thing.  The Minister of Local Government will know that in the election process for the local elections, the election regulations were quite clear, and they made every effort to ensure that there would be some control of political parties during the election process.

What we lack at the present time is the control of the political process in all of these areas where there is a struggle for power.  In those circumstances it no longer becomes a criminal issue where the police can step in and handle it.  It is, I believe, the duty of the political parties.

In the strategy which has been submitted, there is a section which refers to statutory limitations.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I have order please.  I see a stranger in the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, but he is not allowed to speak to the Minister.  Can we ensure that that does not happen again please.  You can continue, Mr Haygarth.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I was referring to the need for statutory limitations and a code of ethics for political parties outside of the election process.

Now it may be an unusual comparison but if you look at rugby today, the violence that has been created in the rugby system has necessitated rules being made to deal firmly with that situation.  That is effectively what we need to have in regard to the political process.

You might talk about a yellow card and a red card and a sin bin, and that is the type of rule that has to hit the individual.  Not to put him in gaol, but there has to be some form of fines or control of the member, if he abuses the normal accepted standards of political development.

Unless we are going to take this seriously and to formulate proper forms of control during the political campaign period outside of the election process, we are simply not going to discipline the people concerned.  Unless you put a very heavy penalty on the party concerned in whatever form that might be, where they are failing to control their members then unfortunately we are going to continue to be faced with this particular problem.

So I want to stress again the three particular issues.  The need for support to the police force, the need for a form of commission of inquiry and lastly, discipline of the political parties outside of the election period and during that period when the political campaigning is causing the violence that we are faced with today.  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Can I then call upon the hon the Raj.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In addition to what all hon members have stated, I want to place on record that we have voluminous findings in documents about the causes of crime in our country.

Of course, there is one point that was emphasised by the hon leader of the National Party, and that is there are organised gangs engaging in the process of self-enrichment.  We are used to the dictum about the long arm of the law and that crime does not pay.  We must never allow this country to introduce a new proverb that crime in our country does pay.

We must also take note of the statistics given by the hon former Premier of this Province, that crime in our Province is being stabilised, the position is improving.  It is very important for us to note that we have to restore the morale of the security establishment or the security family in this country, in our Province or in this country because in any country the greatest defender of a Constitution, or shall I say the greatest defender of the Government is a security establishment.

We must create a situation where the security family must be given a free hand and complete autonomy, free of political interference to handle crime.  You know, we had Punjab on the television screen every day like Bosnia.  You do not hear of Punjab because the Government bowed down to a request from the security family, "Give them a free hand.  Give them autonomy".

When the hon Minister of Transport gives us accident statistics he analyses what causes accidents the most.  Drunken driving.  If you look at most of the crime which we abhor, the common weapon that has been used is not the knife, it is the gun.  It is high time that we take the bull by the horns and tell the Government at National level that we require tough anti-gun legislation.

We do not need 500 policemen to be on duty one night to check whether casinos are open.  We do not need policemen to check whether a liquor store is open five minutes after closing time.  Let us use policemen for the highest priority, to really control crime.  Give them the autonomy, lift the morale and we must have the courage to say, "Either ban the gun or introduce tough gun legislation".

As I said yesterday, we must also compare the world.  We must look at social upliftment.  Remember with every house we build in this Province we are going to reduce crime.  Every job we create in this Province we are going to reduce crime.  So side by side let us not be in a mood of depression, let us tackle the social upliftment of our society.  That is going to contribute also to the lessening of crime on a broader front.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now call upon the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Mr Miller.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, this is a subject upon which I harbour passionate feelings.  Passionate feelings because at least five people near and dear to me have been robbed, or mugged, or attacked in their homes or hijacked in recent times.

The primary reason for the existence of a State is that the State should use the machinery at its disposal to protect its citizens.  There are some States of course who use the machinery at their disposal in fact to do the opposite, but we like to call ourselves a civilised democracy where the machinery of the State is there to protect its citizens.

Indeed, anarchy prevails in society when a State no longer can adequately and properly protect its citizens.  I submit if we are not already in a state of anarchy we are very close to it in our beloved country.

Every day, as the sun sets, law abiding citizens who can afford it, in urban and rural areas, put themselves in their own created goals to protect themselves from the criminals who are outside that goal.  Outside that goal having free reign.  The thugs and gangsters that they are, to rape and pillage and murder and rob, enriching themselves at the expense of law abiding, innocent, and might I add, terrified citizens.

They put themselves behind electric fences and gates, electronic alarm systems, and armed response a panic button away.  They invest billions of Rand which could be more productively invested in this country in order to do the job that the State should in fact be doing.

The security industry is the growth industry of the last decade.  Billions of Rand is invested which produces nothing of value to the country.  More than 200 000 people are employed in the security industry.  I might say some 60% more people are employed in the security industry than are employed in the police force.

These people and that industry is an industry which consumes wealth.  The industry produces nothing of value for the nation.  This investment of billions could be used to produce wealth, to enable our society to build the schools and the roads and the clinics and the rural development and everything else that we in fact really need.

Agriculture, for example, as an industry today has had to spend hundreds of millions on every farm where the farmer has to build himself a fortress, which he can lock himself into in order to make sure that he survives.

AN HON MEMBER:  Slave labour.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  The poor unfortunate slave labour, as is referred to by the hon member, does not even have the ability to protect himself in this way.  The necessary capital that could be used to uplift those very people, is having to be used to create these other security provisions.

I put to you, Mr Speaker, what sort of society is it where Housing Ministries throughout the country are asked every time they try and introduce a cheap mass housing system, "Are the walls AK-proof and will the roofs withstand petrol bombs?".

Scenario planners have often discussed South Africa in terms of the high road option and the low road option.  I want to submit to you that crime, lawlessness and the total collapse of the criminal justice system is apparent to all who have the eyes to see, including the eyes of the hon Mr Bhamjee.  It is apparent to anybody who is not like an ostrich with his head in the sand.  All that will be left will neither be a high road nor a low road, it will be the no road.  It will be a political and economic and social cul-de-sac.  One where there will be no hope, no future, no prospects, a human desert shunned by all who matter in the world at large.

I cannot urge more strongly that everyone of us in this House, everyone of us in this country, all our prominent leaders who spend their time mending other people's problems, should concentrate their efforts on mending our internal crime and lawlessness problem, otherwise this country has no hope.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I would just like to say that it is important to keep order in the House and to have respect for the House.  That respect is not expected only from members of the House, but from all of those who are allowed access into this chamber.  For instance, I would love to say that if there is any member of the public in the gallery who may happen to be having their feet on the railings could they also seek to be as decent as the members of the House, that is just an indication to members of the public.  We have no intention of intimidating or harassing anybody but we also expect order in the House from everyone of us.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon the Minister of Roads and Transport, Minister Ndebele and the hon Minister has seven minutes.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This is a serious motion and it is a serious problem that requires all parties and all communities to tackle with vigour and with unity.

If you look at the South African statistics you realise that if I will be allowed to take racial categories.  When we are born particularly Africans, from the age of zero to age 19 there are more males than females.  That applies to whites, to Indians, to Coloureds.  When we are born there are more males but with the Africans, from age 19 onwards the males go down.  Where do they go?  They will be in cemeteries, in prisons, in drugs.  So it is a very serious National crisis actually, and in the United States it is getting much worse.

I was having a discussion with one of the Consul Generals here in Durban who was in Czechoslovakia during the time of transition.  He was telling me that that country during that period of transition and turmoil became the drug capital of the world.  All the syndicates were headquartered there.  The way they resolved it was to say, they might have the bickering amongst the parties, but the security of the State must be maintained.  Fortunately they had the security force that was historical that could be united, that could act decisively.

In our case we do not really have that.  We have got a security force that was nurtured under ~apartheid~ and will do anything to get a person printing a pamphlet crying for freedom, but will do nothing to stop drug trafficking, as long as those drugs are planted amongst, particularly the activists, because it then deranged them away from the proper struggle.

It is a mammoth task to actually transform the police service that we have, to one that will be loyal to the democratic order.  It is a mammoth task.  What Mr Powell was saying is also quite a telling thing, because even in the appointments that we have had in this Province, there have been quite a number of problems. For instance all the parties in the Portfolio Committee agreed that the appointments that are being made in this Province at senior echelons are such that you cannot deal with crime, because if you are still going to have a white oligarchy of white officials handling crime all over, and being the know-alls, we are not going to get anywhere.  So I think one will urge the Minister to take some steps to address that question.

Perhaps we need to move away from something that actually detracts.  From 1989 all of us here were very conscious, 1989 to 1994.  The National Party was very much in power led by Mr de Klerk.  There was not one single person in this country who was hanged.

The law was there, the Judges were still churning out capital punishment, but even Mr de Klerk, even Mr Schutte, everybody in the National Party had realised that it is wrong to hang people, and we had become a hanging capital of the world.  The National Party never dared in five years to hang one individual from 1989 to 1994.  Mandela was not yet President.  De Klerk was.

The people who were there in the death cells, the Judges were sentencing them, but the overwhelming view of people in this country had said that we cannot be the hanging capital of the world, it does not solve anything.  So let us be realistic about that.

I think the issue here is to actually find our feet in dealing with crime, in the manner that Mr Schutte has proposed, in the manner that unites all parties, and not make a question of crime a football because it just opens a gap, which would be our common grave as it is.

I think some of the attempts that have been made now, I am not quite ignorant about publicity, I am not ignorant about propaganda, but if you go and write on the screen, "Do not do crime", it means nothing.  It is a totally meaningless slogan.  You cannot, "Do not do crime".  If I say, "Do not do speed", you just ignore me but if I say I am going to take away your licence, I am going to confiscate your car, then you are going to take that thing seriously.

Similarly, in terms of crime, we should make sure, like Mr Rajbansi was saying, that crime should be made not to pay.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  A minute left for the Minister.  

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  Okay.  The restructuring of our police services becomes a very urgent matter in a non-racial fashion and the support of the communities has become critical in that respect.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now call upon Advocate Schutte to close the debate.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, in closing this debate.  I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to each and every contributing member.  I believe the hon members have done their best to restrain themselves from becoming politically involved and making political hay.  Perhaps the last speaker was some kind of exception to that but I will not be lured into that.

I believe this was a very excellent debate.  It is not possible for me to even try to refer to the many excellent points that were raised but may I just emphasise four points.

First of all, I believe it is very dangerous to rely on statistics as far as crime is concerned.  Let us look at the statistics regarding murder.  There is an indication of a slight downward trend.  I believe that that is because there was a considerable down trend as far as political murders are concerned and for that we must be very, very grateful.  I believe that there could be included in this, a tremendous upsurge in other murders which we should be very concerned about.

The second point is that we can complain about the Constitutional situation and that it is inhibiting effective policing and there may be merit in that.  But I believe that our first responsibility should be about how we should use the present situation and the present parameters to our best situation in this Province.  The best example in this regard is the fact that we can establish our own provincial investigating commission and I believe we should do so.

The third aspect is the question of police morale which has been mentioned by a number of speakers from all sides.  The police are in a very, very difficult situation and political leaders should not make it more difficult.  If you go to Britain and a policeman were to be killed in the line of duty, that will be major national news for days.  Sadly here it has become almost a daily occurrence.

I believe that one can summarise all our contributions by saying first of all, that there is general acceptance that crime is our number one problem.  Secondly, and that is the good news, and that I believe is the positive message and it can come out of this debate and that is by working together, we can jointly solve it.  This debate is proof of that.

One must add that there must also be a commitment by Government to take all on board, to accept as a National initiative and non-party strategy regarding formulation as well as oversight.

I must, however, close by adding a cautionary note and that is that unless the crime problem is solved soon, it has the potential of undoing all the positive political developments of the last few years.

Mr Speaker, I thank all the speakers and you.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  This concludes the debate on the motion.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am now left with the one last item and that item is the item that we deferred this morning and that was the item on the mandates to the NCOP National.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, since moving that resolution this morning, the NCOP office have made the necessary corrections.  Those I believe are being distributed or have been distributed again, and I would like to move that we adopt those resolutions.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I would suppose that the members are getting hold of those resolutions.  Is there a mover for the resolution to adopt all these mandates conferred upon our special delegates to the NCOP.

MR M A TARR:  I move.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Seconder.

MR N V E NGIDI:  I second, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Motion has been seconded.

8.1  RESOLUTION:  DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES.

REF: 3/11/3

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Minister Z L Mkhize
2.	Dr L J T Mtalane
3.	Mrs B S Mohlaka
4.	Dr A N Luthuli

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Vote at the NCOP Plenary, 12 May 1997
		Budget Vote 15: Health

For the period:	12 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.2.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/4

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Mr M V Ngema
2.	Mr F Dlamini

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Vote 38 Social Welfare

for the period:	13 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.3.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/5

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Minister P M Miller
2.	Mr Y Bhamjee

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Vote 35: Local Government and Housing

for the period:	13 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.4.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/6

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Mr A J Hamilton
2.	Mr M Mabuyakhulu

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Vote at the NCOP Plenary, 14 May 1997
		Budget Vote 35: Trade and Industry

for the period:	14 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.5.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/7

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Minister J S Ndebele
2.	Mr M J Mthiyane
3.	Mr A R Ainslie

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 36: Transport

for the period:	14 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.6.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/8

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Premier Dr S B S Ngubane
2.	Dr M O Sutcliffe

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 9: Provincial and
		Constitutional Affairs

for the period:	15 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.6.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/9

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Premier Dr S B S Ngubane
2.	Mr D H Makhaye

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 13: Finance

for the period:	15 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.8.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/10

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Minister ~Inkosi~ N J Ngubane
2.	Mr J Jeffery

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 20: Justice

for the period:	15 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.9.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/11

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Mr T Mohlomi
2.	

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 21: Labour

for the period:	15 May 1997; or until replaced.

8.10.	RESOLUTION: DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Ref: 3/11/12

In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC), on this the 9 May 1997, that:

1.	Mr B Cele
2.	Mr A J Konigkramer
3.	Mr P Powell
4.	Mr J Jeffery

be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces:

For the purpose of:	Budget Vote 31: SAPS

for the period:	16 May 1997; or until replaced.

THE ABOVE RESOLUTIONS AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR - AGREED TO

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Those will then go for signature and those will then represent us in the National Council of Provinces.  I realise that the Premier is presently not in the House but I would still want to ensure that there is no reports or anything by the Premier.  This brings me to the close of today's business.  This House is now adjourned until Monday the 12th at 10 o'clock here in the Pietermaritzburg Chamber.  The House stands adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 11:58 UNTIL
	10:00 ON MONDAY, 12 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - SIXTH SITTING DAY
	MONDAY, 12 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there is a new member waiting outside to be escorted into the chamber.  Would you give us permission to do so?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  In that event I will then request two members of the party concerned to usher the hon member in.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I believe that, also depending on the circumstances under which members cease to be members of this Legislature, we must also afford opportunities to wish members well who leave.  I do not say in all cases.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I suppose, Mr Rajbansi, the parties have noted your concern and a little bit of advice.

MRS L G NGCOBO IS ESCORTED INTO THE CHAMBER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Ngcobo, will you take the oath or make an affirmation.

MRS L G NGCOBO SWORN IN

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have to announce that the hon Speaker was successfully operated on on Friday and he is now recuperating at Parklands Hospital.  He has thanked the Legislature for the flowers sent to him and the card wishing him well.  He has asked me to convey those thanks on his behalf and we also then hope that he soon recovers.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

The hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker, the Premier has asked me to extend his apology as he is committed somewhere else.  Therefore he will not be present this morning, hoping that after lunch perhaps he will be in your hon House.  Again let me give our assurance to your hon House that as far as the Richmond matter is concerned, besides the presence of the SAPS members we have deployed some security forces in the form of SANDF with the aim to tighten the situation there.  Investigations are carrying on which will result in catching those responsible for the murder of the hon Councillor Mr van der Byl.  I thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the Minister.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The hon Minister of Education and Culture.

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, may I table the annual report for the Department of Education and Culture.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  The report is accepted.  Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would now like to officially table the Auditor-General's reports on the accounts of local authorities in respect of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal for 1993/94 and 1994/95 and also the report of the Auditor-General on the transactions of the Mbazwana Sawmill and Treatment Plant in respect of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal for 1994/95 and 1995/96.

I would like to advise the members that the printed reports will be distributed to members this afternoon.  Arrangements have been made for the Auditor-General to send them to Parliament during the morning.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  There being no further reports or papers to table.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House recognises that both the hon Premier and the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism have committed our Province to promote small, medium and micro enterprises and notes with concern that the draft macro plan on site and route operators will not promote SMME, will not assist disadvantaged persons, will protect persons who benefitted from the group areas act, and for too long Western rules were applied to our country and created havoc amongst the black people.

	Therefore it be resolved to request the hon Premier to ensure that the said macro plan suits Africa's requirement where the vast majority of people live in rural areas and the gap between haves and have-nots have to be eliminated.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, and I am very grateful that your silent protest is now over.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  I may say this, one man's voice is getting results.  I notice that the Minister of Local Government is very upset with that statement.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There being no further Bills or motions.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

RESUMED DEBATE: KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  At this juncture I should therefore transform this House into the Committee of Supply and ensure that the House debates this vote and I therefore accordingly ask the Deputy Chairperson of Committees to take over this chair.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  MR T S MOHLOMI DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR.

VOTE 3:  AGRICULTURE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply resumes.  I now wish to call upon the hon Minister of Agriculture, Mr Singh, to address the House.

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Chairman, hon colleagues will note that certain members of the House, including members of the Portfolio Committee and members of the Executive have flowers on their lapel.  This is testimony of the commitment of the Department of Agriculture to promote all agricultural products in our Province.

Further, those members who feel that they require some food for sustenance during the debate, we have made arrangements for lovely fruit, grown in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to be made available next door.  So whenever you need some calories there are bananas and apples next door for members of the House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Speaker, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, I would firstly like to take this opportunity to thank my predecessors, Mr Bartlett, the hon Minister of Education, Dr V T Zulu and the hon Premier, Dr Ngubane for the role they played in moulding the Department of Agriculture to what it is today.  I have, as all are aware, assumed the responsibility of Minister of Agriculture in the Province quite recently, 47 days to be exact, and I hope to follow on the firm foundation laid by these three gentlemen.  It is thus indeed a very great honour for me as the newly appointed Minister of Agriculture for the Province, to open this debate on the third budget of the Department.

I, like many other South Africans, share a love and pride in our natural environment and I care deeply about passing that inheritance to the future generation, keenly aware that this planet has finite resources.

As our population increases, and it is bound to in the years ahead, the responsibility of this generation is to undertake the challenging task of sustainable agricultural development planning.  Our goal is not only to use the agricultural resource base to ensure food self-sufficiency for the country thereby improving the standard of living of the people, particularly those disadvantaged by history, but our goal also has to be driven by the needs of the international markets.

Yet at the same time I am deeply aware of the problems inherited from the past inequities, discrimination and injustices that contributed to rural poverty, land degradation, land deprivation and access to facilities.  While addressing these issues, my Department and I are committed to a visionary plan for agricultural development through a participatory process that involves all stakeholders.

For my Department, the year under review has been one of continued consolidation, of strategy formulation, development and implementation.  We are determined to strive towards these goals that were set out in the White Paper on agriculture in KwaZulu-Natal, published in 1996.

In spite of difficulties encountered in the process, my Department has endeavoured to deliver the best services that it could to its clients, the farmers of this Province.  I am encouraged by the achievements of the Department and its commitment to provide a high standard of service to the community.

In view of the limited time allocated to this debate, I will focus on a few selected issues highlighting some of the achievements of my Department, and also on other critical issues that impede our progress towards the realisation of our agricultural vision for the year 2020.

I sincerely hope that all colleagues will peruse our Annual report for the year ending December 1996 as it informs on agricultural development in our Province and focuses on some issues that I will be highlighting in this Budget Speech.

I wish to emphasise that the primary function of my Department is to ensure that its physical, human and other resources are used to contribute optimally to the economy of this Province.  This will of necessity require that we expand our agricultural output not only on land already under cultivation but also to bring other potential land into production.

The new democratic order not only assures political freedom but also brings economic rights to a farming community.  All farmers must now be served in an equitable manner and the injustices of the ~apartheid~ system on the agricultural economy in this Province has to be addressed.  It is therefore incumbent upon my Department to apply affirmative action programmes focusing on those who were previously denied access to opportunities and facilities so that they too will take their rightful place in this sector of the economy.

Small farmers who outnumber the large scale farmers by 40 to one require very special attention.

In ensuring the upliftment of rural communities, household food security and a flourishing agricultural economy, the officials and staff of my Department and other private sector role-players are committed to this process.

Let me quote the Mission Statement contained in the White Paper on Agriculture for KwaZulu-Natal 1996 that also serves as a guide to my Department, and I quote:

	To foster an improvement in the quality of life and promote the development of a progressive and prosperous agricultural community by promoting the implementation of appropriate, economically viable and environmentally responsible production systems.

I shall now focus on some of the activities of my Department.  

DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL SCALE FARMERS

1.	DEPARTMENTAL SUPPORT SERVICES

My Department offers a wide support system that provides the information, training, skills and incentives to improve the productivity of the small farmers.  There are essentially two levels of service, the one focused on formal training and research and the other on support services to farmers.  The services include technical support and field officers working at the level of the ward to provide direct contact with the farmers.

The Department acknowledges that a visible extension presence is crucial in developing agriculture.  The internationally accepted ideal is that the ratio of farmers per extension officer should be 500 to one.  It is a matter of great concern to me and to my Department, that our ratio of farmers to extension officers within the rural areas, presently is 1 000 to one.  In fact, this figure would be much worse if we included the need for extension services in urban agriculture.

In an endeavour to show a presence in meeting the extension needs, we also appoint extension assistants who have at least a matric qualification.  We acknowledge that this is not ideal, and see it purely as an interim measure.  I would like to point out that these staff members can upgrade their career paths by undergoing in-service training offered by the Department, or by receiving further training at tertiary institutions.

However, the Department must be allocated additional funds so that it can upgrade existing staff and appoint additional appropriately qualified extension personnel to bring the ratio to a more acceptable level.

2.	SMALL SCALE FARMING PROJECTS
	
Opportunities must be offered to small-scale farmers to realise their potential.  I see this as a great challenge that agriculture presents to this Province, and one that each one of us must take seriously.

Projects which can empower the small scale farming sectors and in so doing contribute to household food security include, inter alia projects such as community gardens, small irrigation projects, poultry units, land use and integrated planning, nursery development, soil conservation, stock watering dams, multipurpose service centres, stock sale yards, invader plant control and women's clubs.  The intention is that much of the work can and will be done by the communities themselves through an empowerment process and thus promote the spirit of self-reliance.  The communities will also benefit from the projects by finding employment opportunities, as well as development of skills in the work required to realise their own potential and also sustain the development proposals.

3.	MARKETING INFORMATION

An important step in assisting small scale farmers with marketing their surplus produce was the formation of the Agricultural and Industrial Marketing Committee, AIM, of my Department, in an attempt to facilitate the flow of relevant market information through the extension staff to the emergent farmers.  A workshop was held on 5 August 1996 to obtain input from various interested parties to guide Government policy on agricultural marketing needs of emerging farmers of KwaZulu-Natal.

Recommendations were made to the Department on problems to be addressed to facilitate the entry of emergent farmers to organised markets.  The AIM Committee initiated projects to determine the present situation and to list possible markets for arts, crafts, fruit and vegetables produced by the developing sector.

I am a strong believer that we must create markets for products that emerge from the sewing clubs and community gardens and to this end I would like to engage the textile industry.  For example, if people in rural areas acquire a skill to sew, then I would like to see clothing manufacturers pass on to them garments that need to be finished.

Before anyone answers that this is not an agricultural matter, let me hasten to point out that the home economists of my Department are active in promoting the acquisition of home improvement skills such as sewing.  Such skills not only improve the quality of life, but also give to the rural women a way to earn money with which they can, and do, purchase agricultural inputs.

With these inputs, the women are able to produce fruit, vegetables, crops, meat and eggs which can be integrated into the Department of Health's feeding scheme which I will touch on a little later.

4.	TECHNICAL WORKING GROUP SYSTEM

An important prerequisite to effective service delivery is that it should take place within an inclusive, integrated process in which communities are fully involved in the identification of their needs in the implementation of these projects.  To ensure this, my Department, in its extension strategy, uses a systems approach to identify and evaluate community needs.  A project is planned and developed with the community through the regional technical working group system.

The regional technical working group system permits needs-driven delivery, community involvement, integrated rural development, co-ordination and monitoring of funding and evaluation on a continuous basis.  Various non-governmental organisations, NGOs, are already taking an active part which is welcome and a very necessary aspect of development.  The system is flexible in that it can either drive the development process or the community may wish to assume this role themselves.

5.	LAND CAPABILITY ASSESSMENT

My Department has just completed a land capability assessment of the Province.  The land capability maps are presented in a user-friendly manner to enable the farmers to interpret the maps and base their decisions on the information supplied.

Documentation is also being prepared for presentation to the tribal authorities and other departments who make decisions on land use.  The maps that assist in land use decisions based on land capability are a necessity if we are serious about growth and development on the basis of resource sustainability in our Province.

 6.	BIO-RESOURCE GROUP MAP

The long term scientific project, the Bio-Resource Group Map of the Province, was completed in 1996.  Each Bio-Resource Group consists of a number of areas of similar climate, vegetation and topography.  This information, together with that included in the Geographic Information System of the Province has facilitated the development of simulation models to predict the yields of 29 different crops in each of the Bio-Resource Units.

The models have emphasised the fact that the natural resources of this Province have the potential to support dramatically increased levels of production of both horticultural and agronomic crops.  The technology development capacity of the Department will be increased considerably to provide an effective service to farmers.  Progress has been made on the compilation of horticultural production guidelines for publication and the series will add to our well established production manuals on a wide variety of topics.

I would like to thank the hon colleague Mrs Mchunu for making available a video cassette and also information on soya products.  Thank you, hon colleague.

RURAL DEVELOPMENT

The history of development, under the previous political dispensation, in the rural areas was a difficult process due to limited resources and scope for these communities.  The consequence has been one of rural poverty, land degradation, poor crop yields and attendant social problems when the men migrated to the cities for work and the women and children became responsible for tilling and cultivation.

The poet W B Yeats in 1916 wrote:

	Too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart.

We must restore the hope in rural communities in the new democratic order.

My Department is committed to bringing development to the rural areas where the majority of the Province's population reside by providing financial support, experience and expertise and access to markets.  The stumbling blocks to emerging agricultural entrepreneurs must be addressed to enable them to take their place in the mainstream of the agricultural economy.

Large scale farmers and the private sector can play an important contributory role in this exercise in rural development by providing their experience and whatever support they may offer to the rural communities and I earnestly appeal to them to engage in meaningful partnerships.

I would like to highlight the importance of the agricultural sector to the Gross Geographic Product of KwaZulu-Natal, its downstream activities, its employment creation opportunities and its huge potential.  According to the Economic and Development Strategy for KwaZulu-Natal, the total agricultural sector with its downstream activities, contributes between 15 to 16% of the Gross Geographic Product of this Province.  Our agricultural products currently contribute about 33% of the national food output and about 37% of the national food exports.  The Province further accounts for more than 90% of South Africa's sugar production, 46% of confectionary production and 25% of beverage production.  For these economic reasons alone agriculture can, and should play an important role in rural development.

CAPACITY BUILDING AND EMPOWERMENT

We are actively engaged in capacity building, training and human resource development both among the members of the staff and the community.

Bursary services are offered to members of staff who wish to further their professional or technical qualifications, and to members of the public wishing to train in agriculture with a view to possibly joining our Department.  R1 million has been set aside for bursaries in this budget.  There is a need to train more members of the black communities to make our staff compliment representative of the communities we serve.  The awarding and procedure for qualification of bursaries will be carefully scrutinized by me.

My Department has continued to provide short course training on a wide range of subjects for commercial farmers.

The Department also provides an active formal training programme at our two agricultural colleges at Cedara and at Owen Sithole which was recommissioned last year.  Both the colleges offer two year courses which lead to the attainment of the higher certificate and three year courses which lead to a nationally accredited diploma.  All diploma courses are accredited by the Certification Council for Technikon Education, CERTEC in short, to ensure an acceptable standard of education.  Accreditation permits students with diplomas to continue their studies at technikons for higher qualifications including degrees.

Non-formal training and in-service training are also provided in the interest of efficiency and effectiveness.

HOUSEHOLD FOOD SECURITY

My Department supports the food security programme and the availability of safe and nutritious food for the population at affordable prices.

The producers of food will be given various types of assistance to farm successfully and will also be advised to protect from degradation the favourable agricultural natural resources to ensure its optimum use.  The extension service backed by field workers, researchers, economists, home economists, veterinary scientists, soil conservation officers, engineers and technical experts are provided by the Department to promote food security and agriculture in general.

My Department also engages with those involved with urban agriculture albeit on a small scale.  On a recent trip to India, I found the advanced levels of urban agriculture most impressive.  In that country fresh fruit and vegetables play an important role in the rural diet.  Many urban families produce sufficiently for their own requirements and even have a saleable surplus which brings a cash income.  I am convinced that much can be achieved in similar projects in KwaZulu-Natal.

There is no reason why small plots of land on which an urban householder lives, cannot be put to intensive agricultural use.  This will provide a supply of essential foods for the household and more importantly will relieve the stress on the household budget which can be made available for other essential items.

I would like my Department to engage in pilot programmes in the townships like KwaMashu and Umlazi and others where we could advise the communities on how to grow crops intensively.

The Department of Health has initiated school feeding schemes and there could be a useful partnership between the school and the households that produce vegetables.  I would like to see a partnership develop between the community growing vegetables, the home economists and the schools.  The home economists can train the community growing the vegetables to cook the food hygienically and the same community then can be contracted to supply the schools with food.

In this exercise, the households will have an instant market for their agricultural products, and the school will benefit by the supply of fresh supplies at low cost thus spreading the budget of feeding schemes further.  Besides supplying the schools, surplus produce could also be sold to the local community at their doorstep.  Everybody benefits from this kind of exercise.

My staff, working with communities have established 1 612 community gardens with a total of more than 30 000 participants.  These gardens benefit a total of about 180 000 people.  The home economists of the Department also teach the women basic nutrition skills and correct preparation of fresh foods linked with community gardens.

The home food security programme has the capacity to be expanded considerably and will contribute significantly to improving the quality of life of people.  My Department will be concentrating on an expansion programme this year and I trust that all members of this House will support us in this venture.

GENDER AND AGE

Particularly for the hon Fatima Nahara and other women in the House and the youth, James Waugh.  Not here.

In many rural households, household food security, care of the children and the environment and health care are the responsibilities of the women.  Women have been the custodians of natural resource management knowledge and responsible for the cultivation of the fields.

Because of the unique role of women in traditional agriculture, specific attention is given to their needs in terms of appropriate training and empowerment.  Institutional arrangements and development have to be sensitive to gender and age.  The youth must also be encouraged through educational opportunities and programmes to become involved in agriculture.

There is a problem of racial and gender imbalances in professional and technical staff in the agricultural public sector.  Incentives will be offered to attract the youth to appropriate tertiary programmes in universities, technikons and to our own training institutions.  There is a need to build capacity in communities disadvantaged in the past.  Creating additional employment opportunities therefore will be a priority.

To this end we are engaging in discussions with universities and technikons that are offering agricultural subjects to see whether those subjects that they offered and the type of education offered to those students are relevant to practical agriculture and we will be reporting on this at a later stage.

PARTNERSHIP WITH PRIVATE SECTOR

1.	THE KWAZULU-NATAL AGRICULTURAL UNION

April 24, 1997 saw the formation of the KwaZulu-Natal Agricultural Union at Pietermaritzburg and the historic occasion heralded the dawn of a new era bringing together four representative groups of organised agriculture.

The formation of this super agricultural union marks the end of a fragmented and divided approach of the ~apartheid~ era.  I am pleased that we have today in the House the president of this new union, Mr Graham MacIntosh and other senior officials of Kwanalu.

The union addressed the fears of the white farmers, the aspirations of the black farmers and the uncertainties among the Indian farmers.  Through the process of dialogue and shared experiences each community will stand to benefit.  The support that my Department has provided in facilitating the formation of the union in the form of financial and logistical assistance as well as with the drafting of a business plan for assistance with the funding of its activities is indicative of the importance we attach to the role of the private sector and stakeholders in the agricultural economy of this Province.  The hon Premier, Dr Ngubane, also announced on that day a grant of R10 million to the union to assist with its activities.

My Department is currently engaged in the process of examining the proposed business plans of Kwanalu to ensure that there is no overlap between my Department and Kwanalu with regard to proposed technical service delivery and the assistance to farmers.  One of the major challenges now facing Kwanalu is the issue of farm labour since a contented labour force is instrumental to rural stability co-existence and good neighbourliness.  I appeal to Kwanalu to address this issue as a matter of urgency.

The purpose of the union is to restructure organised agriculture into a cohesive dynamic organisation that is representative of the farming communities.  This co-operative effort can facilitate the implementation of integrated and sustainable agriculture programmes that can turn KwaZulu-Natal into a winning Province.

My Department views the role of the union as complimentary to the numerous services it offers to the farmers.  The interest of agriculture and the farmers can be best served through sharing our resources in a structured manner while each retains it autonomy.

The challenges that face us are numerous. and this participatory framework reflects a spirit of self-reliance that benefits the individual and the economy of the Province.  I would like to wish the union all the best in its efforts to fulfil its objectives.

2.	ACCORD WITH SOUTH AFRICAN SUGAR ASSOCIATION

A long awaited highlight during the past year was the signing of the Accord between the South African Sugar Association and my Department.  In terms of the agreement one of the co-operative ventures involves trials on the intercropping of sugar cane with various other crops.  This project has been initiated at Amatikulu, in the heart of an area where there are over 20 000 small scale cane growers.  So the practical value of this Accord will be available to a significant number of potential users.

The crops being investigated as companion crops are maize, green and dry beans, sweet potatoes, groundnuts, potatoes, cabbage and a variety of other vegetables.  The practice of intercropping will provide an additional source of revenue to the farmer and also increase the food supply while his cane is being grown.  In addition, the cultivation of other agronomic and horticultural crops which could be grown either on their own or in rotation with sugar cane, is being demonstrated on 13 farms owned by small scale sugar cane farmers.

Sugar cane production is a very important enterprise in KwaZulu-Natal.  I am pleased to record that during the 1995/96 season, the commercial cane growers produced 10,9 million tons of cane with a gross value of R1,206 billion.  We can also be proud of our small cane growers who number about 51 500, and who, last year produced 2,3 million tons with a gross value of R254 million.  It is estimated that an increase of 25% can be expected in the 1996/97 year.

3.	SOUTH AFRICAN SUGAR EXPERIMENT STATION

My Department has entered into an agreement with the South African Sugar Experiment Station for secondment to the Department of four specialist extension officers.  These specialist extension officers will work in giving special assistance to the small cane growers.  Our own departmental technicians now get regular training and keep up to date on the development of new technologies.

EXTERNAL FUNDING

Clearly it is not possible for the Department or the Government alone to service agriculture in this Province without the co-operation of all interested parties, including the large and small scale farmers, commercial farmers, every household or person, agricultural unions and the private sector.  If agriculture is to seek private sector funding then the industry must develop projects that are based on sound business principles.  My Department provides the necessary support facilities and advice to place farming on a sound business practice.

The Department is eager to enter into bilateral discussions with any external organisation that shares our commitment to agricultural development projects.  Such projects could include infrastructural development, capacity building or financial support partnerships that promote and improve quality of life and thus the economy in general.

To this end I would like to state that we have already engaged in discussions with the Consul General's office in India with a view to them sponsoring courses for farmers and members of the Department which are undertaken in India at the cost of their Government.

We are also going to be meeting with Consul's General and agricultural attaches who are based in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal with a view to ascertaining from them what support their Governments can offer us to make KwaZulu-Natal into a leading agricultural Province.

Discussions have also been held with certain NGOs, amongst them a group which is being sponsored by South African Breweries and they formed a trust and they have also indicated their willingness to engage in discussions with us to ensure that we can promote rural development.

With regard to agricultural financing, it should be noted that my Department does not make loans to farmers.  However, we are deeply concerned about the difficulties that farmers experience in obtaining credit and with the high interest rate on loans.  These problems are exacerbated by the extremely high costs of inputs.

In this regard my Department intends addressing the matter through bilateral actions with the National Department of Agriculture, the newly restructured Land Bank and all other external funding institutions.

1.	COMMERCIAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS

Financial institutions have concentrated on support to large scale commercial farmers as I believe they constituted a low financial risk.  Perhaps there are several constraints that prevent the entry of financial institutions into provision of loans to small scale farmers such as their inability to provide collateral.

Yet I believe these institutions have a social responsibility that must include the small scale farmers who constitute the numerical majority of the farming community.  I have had discussions with certain commercial banks who are willing to extend their support to small scale farmers and my Department will facilitate this exercise.  I am confident that given the will to find solutions the problems are not beyond our ability to be resolved.

2.	DEVELOPMENT BANK OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE KWAZULU FINANCE AND INVESTMENT CORPORATION

The Development Bank of South Africa plays an important role in funding development and agricultural projects which are supported by a business plan.  This funding must be resourced by the Province.  The DBSA is an important source of external funding at low interest rates and we seek the support of the bank for some of the projects that are being initiated to improve the agricultural economy of this Province.

Cabinet has given approval for off-budget funding to be resourced.  To this end I intend to approach the DBSA for funding urgent projects as long as the Province can service the debt.

The KwaZulu Finance and Investment Corporation, KFC, is providing credit to small scale farmers.  The KFC have district offices that considered loan applications which are processed through my Department's extension office or directly go to KFC.

3.	INTERDEPARTMENTAL CO-OPERATION

Government is a cohesive unit and the various functions are allocated on a departmental basis for administrative convenience.  A systems approach ensures efficient delivery of services and the best use of resources.

The efficient functioning of my Department for example, requires interaction with departments such as Roads, Public Works, Economic Affairs and Tourism, Health, Safety and Security and Finance.

I strongly believe in integrated development and to that end all sister departments will be actively engaged in all of our agricultural development programmes and I seek their co-operation and trust that they would reciprocate.

1.	RURAL ROADS

Which is a matter that was highlighted at great length during the debate of the hon Minister S'bu Ndebele.

The transport of products from the rural areas requires an efficient road system that enables goods to be transported as practicably as possible to the marketplace.  Historically, the rural areas have been neglected in respect of the provision of infrastructure facilities for various reasons.

Poor transport facilities denied the marketing of products and communities lost the incentive to produce any surplus and earn income.  Rural areas become caught in the vicious cycle of poverty.

Arising out of the need to rationalise service provision within the Province, an investigation of the rural road function is being undertaken with the full co-operation of the Department of Transport.  This study aims to put forward options for the most cost effective means of providing a rural transport infrastructure service to the best advantage of rural inhabitants.  At present my Department is obliged, and which is something that we would like to pass on to other departments, to maintain in excess of 4 000 kilometres of rural roads in this Province, a very high proportion of which is used by the public at large.  This costly duplication of services in terms of manpower, machinery and funding is not in the interests of the Province as it represents a wasteful use of resources.  A rationalisation of services is necessary and there will have to be a revised allocation of resources to the two departments concerned.  I hope to put this matter to Cabinet sometime this year.

2.	SAFETY AND SECURITY

Recently we have witnessed a large number of assaults, threat to lives and murder of farmers and their families.  My sincere condolences go to all those families of farmers who have lost their dear ones through tragic circumstances.  Theft has also affected the small and large scale farmers.  In fact the survival of small farms is threatened as a consequence of the loss of livestock and equipment.  These farmers do not have the financial capacity or insurance to sustain the losses and find themselves sometimes on the verge of bankruptcy or go out of business altogether.

My deep concern with the situation of lawlessness is expressed by me now making a special appeal to the hon Minister of Safety and Security in our Province, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, and to the Provincial Commissioner of the South African Police Services to register rural safety and security as a priority project with the National Government so that the necessary resources can be allocated to this Province.  It is my understanding that this action will go a long way to improving the situation in the rural areas.

In the interest of further information of this sensitive matter and since it is of deep concern to all of us, I would like to call on the indulgence of the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, the hon Mr MacKenzie, to elaborate on this matter and also to elaborate on how far the Joint Committee of Safety and Security and Agriculture, together with other role-players have gone in ensuring that we come up with a practical way of rural safety and security.

3.	SPECIAL DEVELOPMENT INITIATIVES

Development and investment nodes have been identified in the north-east part of KwaZulu-Natal.  The Lubombo Corridor Development also offers new opportunities.  Potential exists for agri-tourism in the north-eastern areas where economic opportunities in rural areas are centred mainly around small scale agriculture and tourism.

The initiative will focus on two projects at Makhathini and Railway Valley.  My Department is investigating the feasibility of nearly 20 schemes to be implemented in the area and in partnership with others will formulate a development strategy for this venture.

The development is designed to penetrate the international markets and will be in an export led initiative.  The development will, I believe, unlock the vast potential of the region and will contribute significantly to job creation and the upliftment of the rural communities.

To this end I will later on in a press briefing be explaining to the press and members of the Agricultural Portfolio Committee and whoever else is interested on how agriculture and the Department of Agriculture wish to get hold of this process in consultation with other departments and to lead the process of the development in that particular area.

NON-EARMARKED FUNDS

I am extremely concerned that I must again report on a very worrying situation regarding the allocation of non-earmarked funds to this Department by the National Department of Agriculture.

However, this matter was discussed at the Ministerial Inter-Government Forum on Agriculture on 5 May 1997, last week, where Minister Hanekom agreed to give this matter his personal attention.  Business plans to the amount of R13,425 million were submitted to the National Department of Agriculture for consideration.  The business plans that were submitted included three irrigation schemes for small scale farmers at Ndumu A, Flint and St Michaels, a cashew out-grower scheme whereby small farmers are established as cashew growers, a fruit and vegetable processing facility known as Zamukhuphuke Fruit and Vegetable Association, and a project for the provision of water for agricultural use and human consumption.  The last project was disapproved and I am going to continue discussions with the National Department on that and the others were funded to only 50% of the amount requested.  The total sum approved for these products amounted to R5,417 million.

The problem was further exacerbated by the fact that although the detail business plans for these projects had been submitted to the National Department of Agriculture as early as 15 May 1996, approval for the projects was granted only six months later on 11 November 1996.  It was thus difficult to complete the projects before the end of the financial year and funds will have to be rolled over to the 1997/98 financial year.

AGRICULTURAL STATE LAND

Which I believe is of extreme importance to all people in this Province, particularly the farming community.

My Department has drawn up a business plan for the settlement of previously disadvantaged farmers on vacant agricultural State land in KwaZulu-Natal.  This was done in co-operation with Organised Agriculture, the Agricultural Credit Board, the National Department of Agriculture and the Department of Land Affairs.

May I point out, Mr Chairman and to hon colleagues, that my Department, in the past, has dealt with 275 817 hectares of State land.  This was done on an agency basis for the National Department of Agriculture, under a power of attorney issued by the Minister of the former Department of Regional and Land Affairs.  A new power of attorney has just been signed on 10 January 1997 by the Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs.

The new power of attorney delegates to the National Department of Agriculture the power to lease land for a maximum period of up to three years and also the power to sell, to exchange, to donate or to let State land on a long term basis with an option to buy.

The second part of the power of attorney, namely the disposal of the land is subject to a framework for co-operation between the Department of Land Affairs and the National Department of Agriculture.  I am pleased to be able to announce that the National Department of Agriculture is presently preparing a document in which these powers will be delegated to my Department.

In the interim and according to the framework for co-operation document, my Department, as well as the other Departments of Local Government and Housing, Traditional and Environmental Affairs and of Land Affairs are in the process of establishing joint State land planning committees in the various regional council areas where State land occurs.  These committees will now plan the State land areas within the regional council areas and will involve all interested parties in drawing up a settlement project plan for each project area.  The plans will be forwarded to the National Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs for acceptance and approval.

However, I must make it very clear that we are adamant that the power of attorney must be enabling.  This would give this Province the power to accept and approve the decisions thus speeding up the urgent need to settle viable farmers on vacant agricultural State land.  The present situations under which we operate is restrictive and vests these powers with National departments.

The 275 817 hectares of State land which I have already mentioned, forms part of the new power of attorney.  It is envisaged that about 70% of these areas could be used for settlement of communities, and the remaining 30% for settlement of emerging farmers on an economical basis.  The local needs and aspirations of people will be considered in the settlement project plans using a participative process of decision making.

DISASTER RELIEF FUNDS

Our Province experienced a long crippling drought during the years 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995.  These disastrous years have affected all the farmers in our Province.  It was, however, the small farmer who was hardest hit.

Drought relief funds were made available from the National Department but due to the criteria according to which these funds were apportioned, and the delays in allocating the monies, before the funds could be utilised effectively, KwaZulu-Natal had experienced the devastating floods of 1995/96.  This resulted in my Department seeking permission from the National Department which was subsequently granted for the use of these monies together with an additional allocation for flood relief.  Again the utilisation of these funds within the 1996/97 budget allocation was not possible due to non-availability of norms and standards which are determined at National level.  Resulting from these delays, Treasury approval will have to be sought for the ear-marked funds to be rolled-over and utilised for the purpose for which they were intended during the current financial year.

For reasons of this nature, my Department and I strongly support the Discretionary Fund of the Premier which could be utilised immediately to the aid of our stricken citizens.

I believe that if there is an emergency in this Province of any nature, then we must be in a position to provide emergency relief to whoever is affected and not have to wait six or eight months or one year before we can provide that relief, because by that time we will be overtaken by events as has been the case in the case of the drought and then floods.

For decision making regarding disaster aid to be an inclusive and transparent process, all decisions are made at the Joint Provincial Agricultural Disaster Committee which is chaired by my Department.  This Committee manages the sourcing and disposal of funds for agricultural disaster relief in the Province and comprises representatives from the KwaZulu National Farmers Union, the National Department of Agriculture, Natal Agricultural Union, the National Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, Siyakha, South African Cane Growers Association, Department of Health and Department of Transport and I would take it that Kwanalu would also be one of the representatives on this committee.

GOOD GOVERNANCE

My Department is determined to give support to the transversal initiatives launched by the Province.  I think particularly of the Good Governance Campaign and the Anti-Corruption and Fraud Campaign.  We have welcomed both these campaigns in the spirit in which they were conceived, and have committed the Department to being part of a cleaner Administration of which we all can be proud.

The Administrative Directorate will be restructured to address matters of concern to all the Directorates.  We are expanding our internal inspectorate to become an internal audit unit which will compliment the role played by the Auditor-General and also be proactive in the development, evaluation and re-evaluation of systems, procedures and controls.  In the interest of cost efficiency and cost effectiveness we have already had discussions with the Auditor-General and with management consultants who have the necessary accounting and audit skills in establishing a three party forum to address and report to management on a broad spectrum of relevant issues as diverse as ethics, stock control and generic processes of administration.

Mr Chairman, hon colleagues, I now present the budget of my Department for the year 1997/98.  The Department has reviewed its objective structure under which funds are administered because in the past it was difficult for the programme managers to control their programmes efficiently.

After careful consideration and also taking into account the new amalgamated organisation and establishment structure, the new objective structure has been drawn up.  This structure has been discussed and approved by the Provincial Treasury.  The structure is operational with effect from 1 April 1997, and Estimates of Revenue and Estimates of Expenditure for 1997/98 financial year have been prepared accordingly.

The complete programmes include two new programmes and are as follows:

1.	Administration
2.	Agricultural development
3.	Veterinary services
4.	Technology development
5.	Agricultural training
6.	Agricultural financing
7.	Forestry
8.	Auxiliary and associated services

Although the forestry programme has been included in this budget, it will be transferred to the National Department of Water Affairs and Forestry with effect from 1 April 1997 and the amount of R20 million will also be suspended to this Department.

The total allocation made available by the Provincial Treasury for the Department of Agriculture for 1997/98 is R343,998 million of which R17,753 million is included for capital expenditure.  This allocation will be applied generally according to the following standard items:

A.	PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE : R214,011 MILLION

	Provision under this standard item has been increased by R24,529 million.  The main reason for the increase under this item is a carry through cost for improvement of conditions of service.

B.	ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE : R30,627 MILLION

	This standard item has been increased by R8,944 million.  It is to cater for both official and subsidised transport, that is running costs and allowances, namely fuel and maintenance allowances.  The provision is also for postage services and telephones.

C.	STORES AND LIVESTOCK : R33,903 MILLION

	Provision under this standard item is increased by R1,468 million to purchase items such as vaccines, veterinary supplies and the printing of publications.

D.	EQUIPMENT : R18,363 MILLION

	As a result of the restructuring of the Department and the installation of networks in the four regions in order to run financial management systems and PERSAL effectively, the provision under this standard item has been increased by R1,102 million in order to purchase file servers and additional computer equipment.

E.	LAND AND BUILDINGS : R265 000

	This standard item is for maintenance of agriculture infrastructure buildings.



F.	PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES : R24,428 MILLION

	Provision under this standard item has been decreased by R19,683 million.  The funds for the private organisations mentioned had been spent under this item.  These funds have been appropriately allocated to "Transfer Payments" standard item below.

G.	TRANSFER PAYMENTS : R19,307 MILLION

	The allocation under this standard item has been increased by R16,403 million.  The increase is as a result of provision to private organisations, namely Mmpendle/Ntambanana, Mjindi Farming and Natal Trust Farms who are performing development works to farming communities in various districts.

H.	MISCELLANEOUS EXPENDITURE : R3,094 MILLION

	Provision under this standard item is mainly the contribution to the stabilisation fund and has been increased by R1,429 million.  The salary adjustments effected in July 1996 automatically increased our contribution to the stabilisation fund.

Mr Chairman, hon colleagues, I do believe that each one of us here today elected for ourselves to enter the challenging field of politics, and in so doing made a commitment to serve the many diverse communities of KwaZulu-Natal.  I ask you to join me in committing yourselves to service delivery and in particular to rural development.

In the final analysis, this House can decide whether we want to see our Province realise its potential as a grain basket of the Republic.  I know that I am determined to see my Department play its role to the full in achieving this potential.  I trust that each one of you shares my conviction.

My sincere thanks is expressed to the Secretary of my Department, management and staff, organised agriculture in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the members of the Portfolio Committee of Agriculture and in particular the Chairman, the hon Mr MacKenzie, members of the Provincial Budget Council and the Secretary to the Provincial Treasury, the Director General for his co-operation, the Public Service Commission for their co-operation and to all my colleagues in this House who continue to express interest in our agricultural endeavours.

I now move that the budget of the Department of Agriculture be discussed.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to call upon the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, the hon member Mr MacKenzie to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Chairman, hon Minister and colleagues.  First of all, I believe it is incumbent upon me to formally welcome our Minister of Agriculture as a result of him now delivering his budget speech.  A very wide ranging and comprehensive address it was which leaves little for us to fill in.  Well done, Minister.

Yet another year has gone by and we are still grappling with the mechanisms which will facilitate delivery to rural people.  The present system of response to applications or to the loudly voiced pleas that are routed through regional offices is at least resulting in some aid.

There are many projects earmarked by the Department of Agriculture, and despite the unprecedented chop we received in donor fund allocation from R15 million in the application to R5 million in reality, we as a Province with a dedicated team in the Department of Agriculture will continue to try to deliver against these restrictions.

It is strongly suggested to the Department of Agriculture that they initiate a comprehensive survey to be carried out by extension officers.  This survey, with relevant questions designed to give a credible picture, is aimed at the small land user whether subsistence or small commercial.

We are conscious of the need to shift the emphasis on identifying delivery needs away from academic and NGO based perceptions to actual capture of data that is based on direct contact with the end user.

Empeleni ngithi asibabuze labana abahlakulayo, abatshalayo, ukuthi bona badingani. [In fact what I am saying is that let us ask those people who are in need, let them tell us what they need]. 

It is believed that these needs, which have never been expressed before on a macro scale, will give the Department of Agriculture officials a new slant, a new direction for delivery priorities with the concomitant improved expenditure allocations in future budgets.  I believe that Kwanalu is also ideally placed at the moment to assist.

Extension officers, as you have heard, will need to be tasked individually with a quota of land users under their care.  In this way the Department of Agriculture can monitor the work output of the extension officer and be made aware of the problems in any given area.  Too many desk bound people shoving pencils and shuffling files may well be needed but they will detract from the great need on the ground.  I do know that the Department of Agriculture is addressing this problem stringently.

I further believe that extension officers need to be graded with a clear upwards notch of salary in direct proportion with their efficiency and achievement.

LAND AFFAIRS

A new mutually agreed working relationship has been established between the Department of Land Affairs and my Portfolio Committee.  This was necessary because of the ongoing evictions, the lack of land to receive evictees, the lack of land to offer for aspirant farmers, and the clear fact that we in KwaZulu-Natal were by and large far better acquainted with the problems, the area and the best possible solutions.  The Provincial Director has agreed to attend our Portfolio Committee meetings on a fulltime basis and he will also include us in planning meetings of land affairs.

MAKHATHINI FLATS

We were delighted to hear that the National Minister of Agriculture, the hon Derek Hanekom, had given the go-ahead to our local Minister Narend Singh to take on Makhathini and make it work.  This is very, very exciting.

At present it is suffering from a variety of ills ranging from undue pressure on the managing company Mjindi to individual political power plays, to a low land occupation, to a poorly advised crop establishment system and so on.

This project represents perhaps the best potential agricultural success base, in that it has fertile soils, organised water and heat.  All that is lacking, and this is largely up to us, is the promotion of processing factories for cotton, soya, fructose as well as canning factories to process tropical fruit, for without a market a farmer will not prosper.  Now sugar has been thought of extensively on the Makhathini Flats and at the moment it is the subject of an evaluation as to its viability.

The future of this highly viable area must lie clearly with the formation it is believed of a community based co-op, an all embracing one, which does not only include the Makhathini Flats irrigation scheme but which also includes livestock farming in that general area, forestry and pecan nuts.  There is already an established timber mill at Mbazwana which can also be a member of this operating co-op.

LIVESTOCK

At present, very few animals from the African sector of our society find their way onto recognised meat markets.  This is because their owners have no access to sophisticated breeding schemes, or fattening feedlots and advanced animal health schemes.  The Department of Agriculture has recognised this as has the new Kwanalu, and the red meat industry who both have pledged their respective support.

Statistics will show that KwaZulu-Natal has the highest number of cattle from the previously disenfranchised areas, yet this sector has little or no impact on the market.  KwaZulu Stockowners is the only NGO which is actively trying to help, but states that simple infrastructure shortages such as reliable sale yards and dip tanks are needed before things can really take off.

While bush and tree butcheries proliferate and at present are the preferred method of livestock marketing, it is postulated that by demonstration of the clear financial advantages inherent in maximising nett profit returns from low level feedlotting, the livestock owner will improve food security by a greater financial return per head thus realising the potential lying dormant at present.  Export of certain meats is also being researched.

Nguni cattle are ideal but there are not enough of them to make a quick and positive impact.  The Department of Agriculture must be encouraged to concentrate on this aspect of land use especially since such a large percentage of KwaZulu-Natal is grassland, and is only fit for herbivores.  Heifer schemes, successful elsewhere in Africa should, we believe, also be introduced as well as AI on beef.

FOOD SECURITY

You have heard very comprehensively from the Minister on this subject but I wish to add my tuppence worth.  There are very, very few homes in rural KwaZulu who can be said to be self-sufficient in the vital commodity of food security.  Most, if not all homes have one or more members employed away from home in order that the home family can receive funds to buy food to augment the meagre returns from their land tillage methods.

It is these very people in the main who need every form of help we can give them in order to stop the tragic urban drift.  The Department of Agriculture is perhaps the best placed Government department to deliver essential aid and as long as this aid can be done on a prioritised basis throughout the Province with no area getting the lion's share, then we as a Parliament will have begun to do our job of creating a climate of food security in the truest sense of the word.

It is not the task of the Portfolio Committee to become involved with the practical running of the Department of Agriculture, but it is the task to see that the budgeted funds are used to the maximum advantage of the people who have suffered so much in the past.  There must never be a situation where personnel salaries dominate the budget to such an extent that the obvious recipients only get small change out of it, and the civil servant perpetuate their own security first.  This does not happen in the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture and I hope it never does.

It is a very constructive step forward for the Government of this country to have formed the National Council of Provinces.  There is already evidence that a sharing in the process of legislation and a platform to express views on a multiplicity of subjects is resulting in a wider spectrum of input that can only aid the process of good governance.

Much has been said about rural security but despite this, we read that the SAPS have identified housebreaking and armed robberies as priority crimes in this Province.  It is fervently hoped that this includes the rural areas with particular emphasis on the tribal areas where robbery or rather I should say cattle rustling is endemic.

To this end my Portfolio Committee has joined the Safety and Security Portfolio Committee and a working subcommittee has been formed which will be tasked to evaluate such possibilities as volunteer commando personnel to augment police.  To enlarge on this, we have found that if you do have volunteer members of a commando force that work three days a week they do not qualify to become fulltime members of the SANDF which in fact might be a deterrent.  They are given uniforms and training and are armed in order to support the police in their task.

The other aspect is the establishment of communication because we all know that if you have communication you can control a situation, whereas if you are at the end of a line and you are not able to tell anybody about your problem you suffer.

Now Telkom have introduced a new and very advanced system called the Chatterbox system, which is specifically designed to operate in tribal areas via satellite and to put people in communication with authorities.

The impact of thievery on rural areas as well as the recent attack on farmers is a distinct threat to a healthy agriculture, and a veritable body blow to emerging farmers who can ill afford any losses but who are powerless in the face of an AK47.

Agriculture is a 25% employer of all labour, and it is a well-known fact that if a country has a healthy agriculture it is a prosperous country.  We add our considerable voice to those who are clamouring for a more result oriented form of policing and a more stringent system of bail plus sentencing, but this can only succeed if each community insists on proactive policing.

I wish to thank members of my Portfolio Committee for their support during the year.  In particular we would like to welcome onto our Portfolio Committee three new lady members.  The hon Ina Cronje, the hon Joe Downs and the hon Abbie Mchunu.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  It should be obvious that it is the women who work most in the rural areas.  It will be the women we hope who will see to it that we get a healthy agriculture.

I also wish to thank members of the secretarial staff for the quiet efficiency, but above all I wish to recognise the fortitude, Isibindi [brave] the fortitude of the farmer, the land user who against formidable odds such as credit restrictions, weather, daylight robbery and fickle markets continues to till the soil and tend the animals with a hope that the Creator will make it all worthwhile in the end.  To the majority women farmers who strive daily to make ends meet, feed the family and hold the precious family unit together I say, "Ningadinwa nangomuso". 

I have much pleasure in supporting this budget.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  Next on our list of speakers is the hon member Mrs Blose who will speak for 12 minutes. 

MRS H M BLOSE: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairman.  I am not going to talk for a long time because women, when they talk, are brief and then they sit down, because they are afraid of ~Amakhosi~, because ~Amakhosi~ say that women should not represent them.  We do represent them, because that is our right which we fought for.

I am going to talk about women and land.  I am going to start off just by explaining about women suffering, being deprived, not knowing what to do in order for them also to have land which is theirs.  It was difficult just to get a house to live in, not to mention once you had married, and those who had children before they were married.  Just to go and get a roof over your head they used to say, "You do not have a husband, and you must have a husband".

We are grateful, Mr Chairman, that mothers have got the right to own land or even farms, as long as you know what you want to do with it.  Now we are happy to receive these rights.  We are not embarrassed by them, because these are rights which we fought for as wives of South Africa.

We asked that the wives be governed by the Government, a Government that is democratic, the structure of ~Amakhosi~ in the new Constitution of this country.  It is a challenge to ~Amakhosi~ that people in their areas should end up owning land, especially the mothers.  Therefore, the structure which pertains to land in the areas of ~Amakhosi~ needs to have mothers who play a role in those structures which discuss land, especially in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.

I like ~Amakhosi~ very much. ~Inkosi~ Mathaba and my ~Inkosi~, the one that is the Chairman, he knows that I like ~Amakhosi~.  There is an area where I do not like ~Amakhosi~, they know.

I now want to talk about the issue of farms.  The owners of farms are always attacking the Government with their wants and demands, but they fail to give their workers what they want and demand.  Take for example Lidgetton, the bosses brook no disagreement.  If you disagree with him or if you answer him back you get chased away.

The mothers are taken advantage of all the time, because they do the same work as that which is done by the men, but when it comes to payment the mothers get paid less.  Another problem that we have is if the husband dies, the mother and the children get chased away and they are told to go, especially the black women.  When will their suffering come to an end in this their land?  

Thank you to the Minister who is in charge of Land Affairs and Agriculture.  Here in KwaZulu-Natal there is a big problem.  Even as we speak there are people who are being chased by the vehicles of these bosses.  They are quite capable of taking people to where they want to take them, when they have been chased away from the farm.

If they want to be taken to where they want to go, those vehicles are not available to take them to where they want to go.  This chasing away of people from the farms is another thing entirely.  We keep talking in this chamber and saying that we have a problem with criminals, but we forget that this is another type of crime which the bosses of the farms are committing.

People are taken from the farms and are dropped in the towns and people become criminals.  In this House all we can talk about is the fact that the criminals are rife.  Some of us in this House created the criminals.  Take Greytown.  People were taken by the lorry-full and were dropped off in Glenwood.

These people from Greytown, they do not know anybody at Glenwood, but they were taken and dropped at Glenwood.  It is better to be dropped off in a place which you know rather than a place which you do not know and at which you were not born.  In fact at a place where you have never been.

In all these things, who are the people that suffer most?  The people that suffer most are the mothers, women, and children.  People that really have it tough are the children and the mothers.  We, the mothers, do not accept this.  We ask that this House examines this issue, because here a large portion of Natal is dominated by farms.

We ask that this issue be looked into, that if people are chased away in whatever fashion from the farms where do they think these people are going to go to?  You cannot even walk here in town.  If a vehicle was to knock into something on the side of the road, it will knock into somebody's house, because people's houses are very close to the road.  Why?  Because of these people that are chased away from everywhere and then they come and fill up the towns here.  This is the type of criminality that I ask you to be aware of, and to know that it is caused by these people from the farms.

In other areas we ask that the criminality be stopped in whatever way possible so that people can prosper, and are able to succeed in their land which they have worked so hard for.  They fought so hard for the rights of their men.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next speaker is the hon Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, at the outset I wish to congratulate the new Minister of Agriculture on his appointment.  I appreciate the enormity of his task although he does not come from an agricultural background, but I believe having been an entrepreneur and a businessman in his own right, I believe that that goes a long way as a qualification in addressing agriculture today.  Agriculture is a business.  We wish him well in his new appointment.

Mr Chairman, I wish to raise three matters this morning.  I would like to speak about household food security, I would like to speak about farm labour, security of tenure thereof and then also I would like to speak about the legacy of the old labour tenure system as it affects so many of our people.

Our Province is endowed with some of the most beautiful and fertile agricultural land.  If we take the mist belt area from Paddock all the way through the Midlands as we know it, the Inanda series all the way up to Northern Natal, especially the mist belt escarpment, is really beautifully endowed with both very good soils as well as reasonably high rainfall.  Then also we have some very good agricultural land when it comes to crop production in the foothills of the Drakensberg with some beautiful red Hutton soils.

The issue that I want to address is the need for our real farmers.  We have heard that there are 40 times more small farmers than there are commercial farmers in this Province, and of those many hundreds of thousands of small farmers we realise that the vast majority are women.

I have a particular love for those who love the land and love the soil.  It was my own nanny, in tilling her garden, who taught me the love of the soil and as a youngster and as a child, as a school child I never needed to go to my father for pocket money, I always produced my own.

Crops such as ~indlubu~, ~amadumbe~, ~ubhatata~, ~umbhila~, ~mastat~ ~iphuzi~, ~imfino~, these are the things that are very close to my heart.  I cannot pass a stand that is selling amadumbes for instance and ~amadumbes~ this year fetched a very high price.  They are getting up to R40,00 a ~igogogo~.  So there is a tremendous potential in this field.  Why are they so expensive?  Because there is not enough of them being produced.  The market is there.

I believe that there is a very, very real need for us to concentrate on our extension services as it pertains to household food security.  We saw in the Department's report that approximately 1 000 soil samples were taken this last year.

I know that there are a great many small cane growers, some 46 000 in the Province who also rely on the Experiment Station to do a lot of work for them, especially in establishing what nutrients are required in cane growing, but I would like to particularly address the needs of our small farmers, our informal small household producers as they obtain probably mostly in the tribal areas of our Province.

1 000 soil samples is nothing.  In my own business we took 246 soil samples this last year.  Just on one estate.  So it just shows that there is a vast need and potential for this to be done.  It needs to be done because unless you address soil fertility which will grow good crops, it leads on to other problems because if you do not fertilise the soil, if you do not build up the organic matter of the soil is does not matter how much rainfall you will have, you will not have food, as we see in the horn of Africa and all the places where we just keep on cropping without putting back anything.

Now we need to develop this culture of using fertiliser.  It is so very, very important.  We cannot just year after year keep cropping.  Yes, we do use kraal manure to get the plants going but we also need outside interventions, scientific interventions to establish what the real nutrient needs of these soils are because the return, and this has to be brought home, the return from buying fertiliser, every Rand you put in can be up to R10,00 in return.

I think if this is really brought home to our ladies of the land, we need to really bring this message home to them, the importance of using the appropriate fertilisers, and this is where the extension officer's role comes in.  It is so important that we have pilot projects, that we have peer pressure brought about, that we have success breeding success because if there are certain members who have good gardens, who have successful gardens the neighbours will very quickly learn.

We are put off by the perceived high price of fertiliser, the perceived high price of good seed and also the importance of getting the right crop in the right soils in the right climatic conditions.  So it is a global approach that we need but I wanted to concentrate particularly on the importance of establishing what nutrients those soils require to grow a particular crop and then how it is applied.

It is not necessary to have a machine to apply that accurately.  Just a stick of a certain length and a small fish tin, that amount of fertiliser of the right nutrients, put down along that stick and mayebabo you can grow a wonderful crop.  It is so simple.

So I really believe that we must concentrate on this particular aspect, of bringing home to the housewife this importance.  Of course she will be nowhere, she does not have to be educated in agricultural science to know all about this.  I believe that the extension officers can take certain soil forms as they are obtained in a certain area and do multiple samples, combine them and then look at other soil forms again.  We know that there is a general shortage of calcitic and dolomitic lime.  Lime is probably the greatest promoter of food and we need to address this but it must be made available also in a form that the locals can make use of.

When it comes to farm labour I would like to pick up where my colleague the hon Jabulile Blose left off.  She prefers to be called Happiness but we all know her as Jabulile.  She spoke of security of tenure of farm labour.

As I stand here as a member of Parliament I am still very deeply rooted in the commercial farming sector.  We are very, very concerned about the security of tenure of farm labour.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes more.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  We have spoken in the sugar industry of agri-villages and we do not seem to be able to get anywhere with agri-villages because there needs to be an authority that manages villages.  We are working hard at getting villages established in our rural areas, compacts attached to the local village so that there would be a local authority.  It is the mood of the farmers to make sure that the people have their own title.  I can assure my colleague that that is the mood of the farmers.

Then I would just like to talk about the old labour tenant system.  It is so sad that only the farmer, the owner of the land is victimised today as having been the culprit of everything.  It is very sad because there are farmers who are caught up in this thing because the grandfather owned the farm and had a contract with two labourers 60/70 years ago.  That farm today has up to 30 small villages obtaining there, the livestock carrying capacity of the farm has been taken away basically from the landowner, the landowner sits with 60 or 70 head of cattle today where it used to be 300 and the occupants have a few hundred head of cattle.

What I am asking for and appealing for, Mr Minister, is that the sensitivity of this matter be brought home to Land Affairs because we need to address both the landowner and the tenants' problem together.  We must find solutions for this.  If these tenants are farmers they must become and stay farmers.  We must help them promote their pastoral activities but we must find a way that does not deny the rights of landowners.  After all they also have rights under the new Constitution.  Everybody has a right and we must be very, very sensitive about this issue, not to deny the one's rights in preference to the other.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Our next speaker will be the hon Mr Ntombela who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairman, and your hon House.  I stand up, firstly, in order to express my thanks, and to congratulate the hon Minister who is in charge of Agriculture, my brother, Minister Singh, on his being chosen by the good finger, being chosen by the Premier of the Province.

We know, Mr Speaker, what sort of person needs to be in charge of this Department.  It needs to be a person who knows about agriculture.  It needs a loving person, a person who does not want to see people without food, to see people hungry.  The person in charge must be able to encourage those in control of agriculture, who work with agriculture so that they are able to work the land in a proper way.

Mr Chairman, I know that as I am congratulating the hon member Singh, that he has been chosen to be in charge of the Department of Agriculture.  A lot of people have forgotten that agriculture was traditionally in the hands of our brothers, the Indians.  They are the ones who know about agriculture.

They came here and they planted bananas and worked on the lands.  They worked on many things while other people were sitting down talking about politics.  At that time our Indian brothers were not included in politics.  Nobody is unaware of the fact that when you go along the coastline there are green gardens there.  Those are the Indians who are responsible.

They were the people who worked on agriculture, and I think that we in this House, and the community, need to support the hon Minister.  We must not forget.  Now that he has taken over this Department we waste time criticising saying this and that.  We must help him so that hunger comes to an end, and sickness comes to an end.

Mr Chairman, the way in which we can help the Minister is by telling him the things that stand in the way and cause people to dislike agriculture.  The first thing, it is known that when the ~apartheid~ Government was still in power, the ~apartheid~ Government used to help agriculture as far as the whites were concerned.  The blacks received no help as far as agriculture was concerned.

Firstly, when the whites' crops were damaged by hail the Government used to pay for their losses, they were given money to tide them over seeing that their crops had been damaged by hail.  When there was drought, Mr Chairman, there too the Government used to help in a very meaningful way by paying out those people who were white, who were farmers.  They used to be paid out for their damages.

On the other hand, we, the black people, if there was hail you received nothing.  It was not even a topic worth talking about.  Your losses were not even mentioned.  Nobody talked about the fact that hail had decimated your crops.  Nothing was said about the drought, meanwhile your mealies were finished, your beans were finished, your amadumbes were finished and nothing was said about it, but the white people received aid.

Mr Chairman, I say today that our Government, which is a democratic Government in that it includes the will of the black people and all the other races, we have chosen our Government.  This is the Government which now rules.  I say in order to help the hon Minister, he must concentrate on the areas of the black people, and he must help them.  There must be ways in which people can receive aid if there is hail.  The people I am referring to are the black people.

If there is drought they must receive aid.  That will prevent the hospitals becoming full, as it is said that they are dying of hunger.  Because of the fact that they receive aid, they will be motivated to plough the land.

It will be remembered, Mr Chairman, that even as I speak the majority of the black people do not want to have anything to do with ploughing the land because they know that once they have ploughed their land and there is a drought they get nothing.  If the hail comes they get nothing.  If then, hon Minister, you are able to re-awaken this I trust that the people will get up on their feet and become fond of farming.  They will know that if there is drought they will be compensated for that.  If there is hail again, they will be compensated.

It will be remembered, Mr Chairman, and the hon House, that the Prince of KwaPhindangene who was the leader of the Government of KwaZulu, which no longer exists, there were areas that were known as farming areas.  Tractors used to be sent out and they used to go and assist the black people to plough.  There were fields that were set up as examples, and the community was assisted.

Today we have this Government of ours which is a democratic Government.  You no longer see even one tractor going to help the black people.  There are no fields that are set up as an example.  I say to the hon Minister, as you have now taken over this Department be mindful of this, that the Prince of KwaPhindangene, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, did that because he was helping the black people who were not being helped by the ~apartheid~ Government.

I say, sir, if you take over these reigns, ride the horse that was ridden by the Prince of KwaPhindangene in order that the people may be helped, those people that suffer from hunger.

Mr Chairman, let me move on, sir, and talk about an issue which is a problem in the rural areas.  The old ~apartheid~ Government, I am not going to criticise it, I am going to congratulate it, because the ~apartheid~ Government used to put up fences next to the roads in spite of ~apartheid~.

There were no people that were killed by vehicles, that were colliding into horses, and colliding into cattle, and colliding into goats, because the Government used to put up fences.

A very surprising thing today with this our Government, you do not see any fences.  People are dying every day.  Their vehicles are destroyed colliding with horses which are all over the road, cattle are all over the road.  There are no fences.

I say in order to help our Government which is led by this Minister that we like, Minister Singh must see to it that the fencing is put in place in order to protect the people who are driving on the roads.

Lastly, I am requesting that in order for us to succeed in the Department of Agriculture, there should be official committees formed.  These committees should operate in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  They should concentrate mainly on seeing that fencing is put in place.  I am referring to the fencing that is at the side of the road, and I am saying that that fencing should not be removed.

If there are cattle or livestock in the roads, that committee must be a committee that is going to be employed, not a committee that works for nothing.  They must be employed because the Government has money.  We must stop taking money which should be helping people, which should be helping the poor people and the people that are unemployed, and yet that money is taken and it is said it is for the prevention of this disease known as AIDS.  I do not know what sort of animal that is.

Small children are told to go and dance on stage and Mbongeni gets paid a lot of money.  I say the money must come there, the money must not be used for foolish things, this thing about AIDS.  I say, Mr Chairman, indeed, in order for us to succeed, if we do not have these committees that are going to monitor the situation of livestock on the roads, it will mean that we do not know what we are doing.  Those committees should be there.  The hon Minister, those committees should be official.  People should be officially employed.  People should be employed to look after the livestock.

Lastly, the pounds.  The pounds should be in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  The pounds for the livestock of an ~Inkosi~ should not be taken and placed in far away places like Howick, because the livestock is the ~Inkosi's~ economy.  It is the community's economy.  Why is it being taken and given to other people who do not care about livestock, then it is taken and thrown far away?  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR T D NTOMBELA: TRANSLATION:  The pounds should be in the ~Inkosi's~ area, Mr Chairman.  Cattle should be impounded on the roads for breaking the law and the livestock should be put in the ~Inkosi's~ pound.  ~Inkosi~ should be the person that controls that pound.  The country will be rectified if this is done.  I must thank you, sir, because the Induna has spoken.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  ~Siyabonga~ ~Mahlobo~ ~Baba~.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Mchunu who will speak for 12 minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Mr Chairman, the speech by the hon Minister of Agriculture, Narend Singh, adequately indicates a good grasp in regard to the direction in which things should go.  Him being a new Minister in this portfolio I would like to congratulate him for that.

In addition to that, I want to appreciate his reference and emphasis on a number of issues that are affecting commercial farmers, particularly about the question of safety and security and their interests in general.  That as well is welcomed and appreciated.

I just want to sort of concentrate on agriculture and rural development, an area which I think all of us will agree is a crucial matter and actually a very urgent matter which needs a lot of focus and expertise.

I will start by saying that it is actually very difficult to talk about agriculture in this Province unless you are referring to white commercial farmers and just a semblance of black sugar cane farmers.  Well, this is for obvious reasons.  I need not spend time on that.

I believe that this is a problem that needs to be changed and that change should actually be far-reaching and very drastic.  Minister Singh appears to be relatively young and I think he is going to spend a lot of energy on this matter in particular.

I must say that land policy in the past is just one example what was happening, was quite awkward and also agricultural policy of the past was actually quite awkward and never catered for any future whatsoever.  We are caught up in that situation today.

I will not spend time on what was happening with regard to land policy, we all know.  I will not spend time on what was happening on agricultural policy because we also know.

I must say that despite the two problems cited above, it is true that there are certain parts of the Province which were not necessarily affected by the land policy of the past and by the agricultural policy of the past.  That is true,. [that is true].  Most of these parts are in what is called tribal areas.


TRANSLATION:  The majority of these places have not been touched. These places are in the areas that are known as tribal areas.  In other words, the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  I want to say in these areas these are the areas that were not affected by the policies of the past.  T/E

Even there you can actually hardly talk of agriculture or agricultural activity.  Hardly talk of it.  That is why I am saying that most of the other jobs, the new Minister must actually focus on are those areas because that is where you have land available.  That is where you need a lot of development in as far as agriculture is concerned.

Land there which is not used is available and I have travelled through most of this Province, there is hardly any area that I have not been able to go to.  So I have a fair knowledge of the availability of land in as far as these areas are concerned.

Truly speaking, the future of active and developing and progressive agriculture in this Province lies in what we do, in which answers we provide to that question of the land that is in tribal areas and agriculture and the promotion of agriculture to the best interests of those people.

Otherwise we are likely to have to depend on the situation where you actually encourage urbanisation which is going to be self-defeating for the country and for the Province in particular, because you are driving people from land which is available for use, to land that is in the peri-urban areas which is hardly available and hardly useful, and which you cannot develop and which will result in squatters and squatters.  We will just blame ourselves across political lines which will just be useless political shop-talking.

The question therefore is what do we do to develop a small farmer in the tribal areas?  That is the question.  That is the crucial question that we have to answer.  One could look at a possibility of a special agricultural development programme.  I did hear, the Minister referred to the need to intervene in this regard.

What we now have to discuss is what will be the contents of that development programme?  In other words, providing answers as to how do we make land available.  What does it concentrate on?  What does that programme concentrate on?   Those are the things that we have to focus on.  In other words we have to say how do we avail land for serious farming in these areas?  How do we find markets for products from those areas?

We also have to answer the question which I think is very important.  That is the general orientation of your Department, Minister, with regard to agricultural development in rural areas.  I do not know how far.  I have the highest regard and respect for the Department officials, but I am not sure of their orientation in as far as we want to focus on is concerned.  That is one area which we have to look at very seriously.

Can we now say we have a Department which we are sure does understand the situation in those areas?  Are we sure?  Are we sure of that particular issue?  If we are not sure we should rather try to provide answers and do something about it.  That also applies to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture.

Ever since I have attended Portfolio Committees I have not been satisfied with the issues that were discussed.  Perhaps it is something that we need to look at.  I am not blaming anyone there.  I am only saying that we have to be conscious and sensitive to those matters and so far I am not satisfied.

Well, the other issue that we need to look at is the whole question of co-ordination between the National Department of Agriculture and the Provincial Department of Agriculture.

I believe that these are our resources as people and also as people of this Province.  You appoint a National Minister of Agriculture and the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, not to operate on the clouds.  Definitely so, not to operate on the clouds and it will never be.  They must operate on the ground, that includes KwaZulu-Natal and we have got to ensure that they are as visible as possible.

We appoint a Minister of Agriculture in the Province not to operate on the ground.  In actual fact there is nothing called a province, what is there is actual land on which he has to travel on foot, the length and breadth of the Province, otherwise you cannot develop policy on air, on something that you depend on tales about.  You have to go there yourself so that whatever you do on an every day basis you develop on the basis of what you have seen, what you have actually touched and what you have heard.

Now we cannot therefore start spending lots and lots of time trying to develop rules as to how the National Minister co-ordinates with the Provincial Minister.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR E S MCHUNU:  If we do so our people will go hungry, with us trying to develop very good policies which we will land in boardrooms and on paper, which would be useless.  People cannot eat rules and policies.

If Minister Singh is allowed to go to every corner of this Province, the Deputy Minister National is allowed to go to any corner of the Province and the National Minister of Agriculture is allowed to do so, then we will have something to eat, because we will say arising from your travels and your trips what then do you deliver?  But if we spend time discussing all these things it just causes disillusionment and it is a problem that we will have to answer.

Every one of us, including every village, we have a right to see all these Ministers.  As I have said, they are our national resource.  If we waste time politicking on those issues we are wasting time.

The other issue which I want to raise is the whole question of land which is made available through the restitution process.  What is our role there?  Do we say one slant is available and then we have no role to play, we just say those communities should be allowed on their own?  I believe we have a role to play in terms of planning, in terms of what actually should be done in regard to that land that is made available.

The last issue is the problem of farms.  There are many things, Happy has raised a number of issues.  One of them is impounding.  One of the most disgusting things that is still happening in this Province is that there is still impounding on which people are made to pay and which people are reduced to a status of non-entities and so on by the officials in these impounding places.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Well, the very last is on the question of evictions and so on and so on.  Thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next will be the hon member Mr Nel who will address the House for six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and as I follow on the hon member Mr Mchunu, I just want to make one remark on the issue of impounding of animals and suggest to him, that there is no way that any properly governed country or province, can go without a decent regime for impounding of stray and dangerous animals.

I will grant him that there are occasions when this thing has been abused, but I must tell you that in my experience the stories have often also been exaggerated.  It is now urgent that we finalise the Pounds Bill that has been lying around in Parliament for some two years and certainly we would be looking to the Department as a matter of urgency to finalise this matter, because we have been waiting now for literally about two years to make progress on it.

I would also like to add my voice to those who have congratulated the Minister on his appointment.  It is one of those Ministries that I would have thought is a privilege to be given to run, because whilst the challenges are extremely large and perhaps in some cases almost insurmountable, it is one of those departments where with very little money you can empower people to improve their every day lives.  There is a lot of high potential land lying around unused which people can at low cost, use far more beneficially than they have.  We would be testing the Minister and his Department on their achievements in this regard.

I also congratulate him on the annual report and the Minister's speech which have been professionally done and we are encouraged.  We certainly hope that that spells good for the future.

In turning to the annual report.  I notice on page 10 there is a summary of allocation of funds according to clients.  The encouraging thing here is that whilst we have been complaining for some time, that departments have not reprioritised their spending, we now see that in the four regions, North-West, North-East, South-West, South-East, the bulk of the expenditure from this budget is already going to small scale farmers or exclusively to small scale farmers.

Now obviously, there are things like the administration costs, technology, development and training which are not targeted only at small scale farmers, but the bulk of the regional expenditure is now going to the right place.  That is where we think the assistance is required and if that is what the Department is going to do, then we certainly are confident that they will be successful.

We note with concern, that the Minister says a target for extension officers related to the number of farmers is one in 500, and that at this stage we only have about one to 1 000, and that if you add the urban areas in fact the ratio is much worse.

That concerns us, because I think the urban areas are the very first targets perhaps, of the Ministry, to assist people who have small unused plots of highly fertile, high rainfall land to use those for market gardening or simply to supplement household diets.  That can save them a lot of money.  I would think that the Department must as a matter of urgency target their efforts in that direction and see what can be done to improve the production.

If you fly overhead down the coast, from the North right through to the South, you can see hectares upon hectares of under-utilised small plots, that could be better utilised with a little bit of good extension and advice, all the way down to the border of the Eastern Cape.  We would want the Minister to do something about that as a matter of urgency.

We note his comments about India, where precisely that attention has been given in those areas and many households are self-sufficient, or at least supplement a large proportion of their diet through precisely that type of small scale farming.

I notice there were 16 000 soil samples taken last year of which only 2 000 were from small scale farmers.  I would like to know how many of those soil samples were initiated by the Department as a service, to stimulate the proper use of agricultural land by small scale farmers or even subsistence farmers?

I would submit to you that there is room for doubling or tripling the amount of soil samples coming from the non-commercial sector, because we heard here from the hon member Mr Redinger that he himself had submitted 200 soil samples and the bulk of those 16 000 obviously come from the commercial sector, people who know how to help themselves and will continue to do so.  We urge the Department to help those who have less experience in that regard.

One last comment about the annual report.  I notice on page 58 that there is a small five and a half line report on the sawmill at Mbazwana.  My understanding is that this State owned operation is a scandal.

We have on the table now, which I have not seen yet because the copies are not yet available, the Auditor-General's report on that mill.  I find it unacceptable that in an annual report of this size only five and a half lines could be devoted to that mill.  I think we need better information on what is going on there and a better use of the State's assets in that regard.

Then in the Minister's speech there was reference to some 275 000 hectares of State agricultural land.  What I would want to ask is what progress has been made by the Department in identifying candidates for establishing as either small scale or medium scale farmers on that land?  What expertise have they got?  What plans have been put in place to train them so that they are ready to move on, because the great fear is that by the time the State is ready to act to try and settle people on this land, that the land will already have been invaded and be practically useless to agriculture.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR W U NEL:  So we would like to see what progress the Department has made here.  It is not sufficient that we hear that there is an intention to use 70% of this land to settle communities and the remaining 30% for the settlement of small scale farmers on an economic basis.  That is a very vague statement of intent.  We would like to know the specifics and to be comforted that the Department is in fact doing something about this issue, which I believe has been neglected for very long.

Sir, in closing, may I say that I think that the Minister might well take up the case for the commercial farming community, on the issue of the diesel rebate.  I notice that they have had a totally unsympathetic hearing from the National Minister of Agriculture, which I would submit is totally unacceptable and unjustified.  Only about a quarter of the taxes paid on diesel fuel was given off in the form of a rebate to commercial farmers.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR W U NEL:  I would suggest that that was very little in view of the fact that those tractors and lorries are not used on roads which have been built by taxpayer's money but operate mostly on farmland.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next will be ~Inkosi~ Khawula who will address the House for ten minutes. 

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairman, for the opportunity you have given to me.  What makes me very happy today in this House is that we are talking about a Department of a Minister that I know.  I knew him when he was growing up, I know his home.  He is from our area on the South Coast, the Umzumbe area.

I am also happy because Mr Ntombela has spoken a lot about him.  Although he has spoken, I also want to touch on it and say a few words.  Ntombela is right, I support him.  As far as this Minister is concerned, the right man has been chosen for the right job, indeed.

I who know his home, know that they do not buy spinach.  At his home there is a lot of vegetables.  The Minister was well chosen.  This Minister from our area, Mr Singh, is a peoples person.  He is the IFP chairman of the Umzinto district.  He is in charge of the people and 12 ~Amakhosi~.

Yet he is an Indian, but he goes to the people and mixes with them.  He was not chosen by Indians, but he was chosen by the people and ~Amakhosi~ to be the chairman because of his skill.  I am happy to be able to talk about his history.

I want to start off my speech and I want to speak about the farms, especially those farms that are next to the towns of the whites, and also the farms of the blacks.  There is violence that is not proper violence, which is actually criminality caused by criminals on the farms.

Criminals, especially on those farms that are close to towns, the criminals meet and they go to these farms and when the criminals get there they harass the owners of the farms.  They take money, they commit robberies where money is taken, they commit robberies where cattle is taken, they commit robberies where sheep are taken, they commit robberies where pigs are taken, they commit robberies where fowls are taken, they commit robberies where earrings and jewellery are taken.  When I refer to earrings I refer to those which are worn by ladies, those beautiful ones indeed are taken in robberies.  Necklaces are also taken in robberies.

Those necklaces that make you ladies, once you are wearing those necklaces, you are very beautiful indeed, just like Mrs Mkhize.  She is now wearing her earrings.  [LAUGHTER]

If somebody were to say in this House that we were going to have a party here, and tell us to go and fetch our wives from our homes, especially amongst the whites, they would come back with their wives and girlfriends and they would be dripping with earrings, and necklaces, and things that jangle.  Those necklaces are expensive.  Now the criminals destroy all that.  They take it from the farmers.

That causes the economy to decline because the farms are the places that generate the economy.  On top of that, the farms are the places that generate food.  We are here because of them, because they have generated food.  We are here because we had something to eat this morning.  We will also have something to eat at dinner time.  We will eat the food that comes from the farmers who own the farms, which was planted and ploughed by the owners of the farms.

Our spines would not be strong if we did not have food.  Food is a very important thing, because food is what makes a person think.  If you are hungry you cannot think, your brain comes to a standstill.  If you are hungry you cannot sleep, sleep does not come because you are hungry.  If you eat you are free to think of all the good things.  If you are hungry you think of crime, this crime that is perpetrated by the criminals that go to the farms to go and rob the farm owners of their possessions.

They are killers too.  They kill the farm owners, they kill the men and their wives.  We must not forget that the farm owners have been taught how to be farmers.  If there were to be no more farm owners, the food would be finished.  This country exists because of the farm owners, because they cultivate food and they have livestock.

I support the Minister from our area, the South Coast, in all that he has been saying in this document.  Before I sit down, I want to touch on this.  I want to tell you about what food does.  Food here in KwaZulu has a history.  Food is something that is very important.

Here in KwaZulu food accomplished a very great thing in the time of King Shaka.  At the time when King Shaka had first been inaugurated as King, he was still young, he was attacked by King Zwide.  Zwide was known as a great King here in the KwaNongoma area.  He was a great King.

When he sent out his troops, he sent out his troops without giving them food.  He used to say, "You will eat at your destination because you will be victorious".  When this happened, while the King was still thinking,~ Inkosi~ Ngqengelele, who is an ancestor of Buthelezi, went to King Shaka and said, "I have a plan, O'King, with which we will defeat Zwide as he is on the way to attack us".

The King said, "Speak, Ngqengelele.  What are you saying", and he said, "You know as far as Zwide is concerned, they do not carry food when they are attacking.  He sends out his troops because he is victorious everywhere, and he says you will eat when you get to your destination.

I am requesting, O'King, that you call your troops and you cause them to retreat for days until the attacking troops of Zwide are hungry, because they will not have anything with them.  You must adopt a scorched earth policy and you must burn the mealies, and you must retreat with the cattle.  Everything must retreat, including the women.  You must retreat with them".

King Shaka said, "Oh, Ngqengelele, why are you as clever as I am?  What are you saying?  I am going to do everything that you have said".  Indeed King Shaka did so.  He retreated his armies.  Zwide's army got hungry, and when they got hungry he said, "Stab them, they are in our place".  King Shaka defeated Zwide.  He defeated him with a plan which was hatched by ~Inkosi~ Ngqengelele.  He defeated him with food.  He defeated him with his stomach, because Zwide's army was hungry.  The King defeated him.  The King defeated Zwide.

Food for us here in KwaZulu has a great history.  We cannot forget it.  While we are eating it we are thinking about all the historical events where food is involved, because this is one of the methods which King Shaka used in order to extend his Kingdom.  Food caused King Shaka to succeed because of a plan that was given to him by ~Inkosi~ Ngqengelele who is an ancestor of Buthelezi.

King Shaka was victorious in battle.  After King Shaka had been victorious in battle, I am talking about King Shaka's cleverness, because of his cleverness he said ...  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [You only have one minute left, sir].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Then King Shaka said to his army, "This section of the army should go out and fetch Zwide's army from his home".  Zwide's army was caught, some in battle, some at his home.  I am sorry, they were caught in battle.  He said, "Do not kill them".  They brought them back to him, then he said, "Sing me the song of Zwide that he sings when Zwide is victorious".  I am about to sit down, sir.

They sang the songs.  Then King Shaka said, "Put on the traditional dress which is worn by Zwide.  Go and catch Zwide for me at his home".  Zwide heard them singing and said, "I do not think they are singing well like my people, and I have also had a bad dream".  He then fled.  When the troops arrived they caught his mother Ntombaza and brought her back.  I do not want to talk about the things that happened after that, and what happened then, because we are not here to relate history.  I was just telling you that here in KwaZulu food has a very great history.  Thank you, sir.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We thank you sir].  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Rajbansi who will speak for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon Minister for an excellent report but of course from a practical point of view, by implication, the congratulations go to the predecessors.  Our present Premier and the former Minister, the hon Mr George Bartlett.

I think we are proud of many things relating to our peasants of our land, and that is that we have a high level of technology comparable to amongst the best in the world, we have excellent infrastructure in our agricultural sector, we have an excellent irrigation network.  We can improve upon it with the development of the Tugela Basin.

I am proud to say, that the Indian agricultural indentured labourers played a valuable role in respect of the building of the infrastructure of agriculture in our Province.  If we research our history, the infrastructure for our dams, the infrastructure for our irrigation system was also laid by experts from India, and they are not only whites but they are also Indians.

You know, throughout the world there is a saying, "When the farmer is happy the country smiles.  You look after the rivers then you look after the farmer.  If you hurt the farmer or if you kill the farmer you are hurting the country or you are killing this country".

Of course, the hon Minister, in his introductory speech gave us details in respect of the contribution of our Province to the National agricultural output.  He made some references to India.  I think one thing that India is noted for, throughout India in spite of its thousand million population, that it is self-sufficient in food, it is self-sufficient especially in fruit and vegetables.  May I say one small State called Punjab produces most of what India requires and also has sufficient for export.

I want to make a plea today.  In spite of what the Minister has promised and that the transformation process must continue on the high lane.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We know, as Dr Buthelezi once described the allocation of land through the group areas that white avarice has gone mad.  We have the imbalances and I express the wish that while we have the large commercial farmers, they are important, they are here to stay, they must be encouraged, that the highest priority in real practical terms must be given to small farmers even if it means buying farms that are not in use, buying farms that can be used to resettle the small farmer.

There has been much said about the shortage of food in the world.  There is a Unesco report that indicates that the world has enough land that can be tapped by people who are prepared to farm properly and effectively, and we have enough spare land to satisfy the food requirements of the entire universe multiplied by two as at the year 2080.  Thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mrs Cronje who will speak for 12 minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Chairperson.

1.	AMALGAMATION

Chairperson, I was very honoured to have attended the amalgamation of the former agricultural unions and associations on 24 April of this year, as also referred to by the hon Minister, who was present on that occasion.  It was an extremely well organised occasion attended by His Majesty the King, the hon President of South Africa, the hon Premier, the hon Minister Zuma and so the list continues.  It was really the who is who of politicians in the country that attended that function at that senior level.

I think it augers well.  It was very heartening for me to attend such an occasion and somehow that earlier picture in my mind, as agriculture in the Province being white has now taken on a new dimension.  At that particular function everybody was there together to amalgamate their unions and associations.  It indeed was a happy occasion.

Afterwards, many people remarked to me when we attended also a very nice lunch, that now the real work begins.  I think that really is the issue.  Now the real work begins, but we have laid the foundation in this Province and I think our hon Minister actually starts with the advantage, that he has got an amalgamated farming community.

On that note, I would also like to congratulate the hon Minister.  What I have seen and heard of him so far, in his capacity as Minister of this Department, I think augers very well and I wish him well.

2.	LAND ISSUE

I want to touch on a few very important issues as far as I am concerned, but I would also like to mention the land issue.  Now it does not fall under the Minister's Department, I am fully aware of that, but I just feel that one cannot talk about agriculture to say that of course, agriculture and the land issue is inextricably bound and we are aware of many problems.  I am sure that the Minister will also use his channels of communication to expedite the finalisation of land.  As I say, although it is a very huge issue I will leave it at that for the time being.

3.	FOOD PRODUCTION

I was interested this morning to see how many speakers actually spoke about food because we need it.  What I find quite astounding is that we live in a country that exports food and yet people are going hungry in a country that exports food.  Children are still dying of malnutrition and related diseases.

What is wrong?  I mean why can we on the one hand be exporting food and on the other hand people are dying of hunger and malnutrition?  Now it seems that not enough food is getting to all the right places and one would imagine to the poor people.  The poor people are not getting enough food.  That is the one problem.

The other problem is that everybody across the board is eating the wrong food to a very large extent.  I was very pleased to hear the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula refer to the Minister's spinach, because that is the type of food that is very nutritious and the right type of food.

I want to actually put a challenge to the Minister.  I think this Department should take the lead in bringing about a shift in the production of food to be in line with what is now universally accepted as healthy eating habits.  There is a significant shift away from red meat, and I am very sorry if there are red meat farmers present here, I am not trying to do you out of a job but look for alternatives.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  What about the poor cow?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I think the hon Dr Sutcliffe might do well to shift away from red meat as well.  There is a significant shift towards eating fish and white meat.  There is a significant shift towards eating vegetables.

Many speakers, interestingly enough, this morning, have referred to India.  On a recent trip to India the one thing that struck me is from the South to the North, in the villages and in the cities, the one thing that was available in abundance was fresh fruit and vegetables.  Every street has its cart and its stall where you can buy just about (there was also a huge variety), any type of fresh fruit or vegetables.

I want to put a challenge to the Minister.  I think he has an education process also ahead of him.  I was very heartened to see that part of his report referred to co-operation with other departments, because I am always very concerned when departments operate as if they are little islands and watertight compartments.  So I think that is an excellent start.

I want him to co-operate with the Department of Education and the Department of Health, on a specific project that I want to propose to him.  Why can we not at every school in this Province and at every clinic in this Province, because that is where people go to, have a kind of model demonstration garden that the Department of Agriculture is involved with, as I say, with the co-operation of Education and Health, where your children can learn food production and healthy eating habits.  Let us then produce the spinach that the Minister is so good at producing.  At every clinic where people are going, let us have a garden at every clinic.  You can then actually have a holistic approach to health, to education, healthy eating habits and food security for the nation.

We actually have a very good example in this Province at Valley Trust in Botha's Hill.  I do not know whether the Minister has visited Valley Trust, I would recommend that he does pay a visit.  It is a model that does not seem to have been repeated to my knowledge, but the object of the exercise, and it has been in existence for a very long time, going back to when I was still at Durban University.  We went there as students, to actually bring healthy eating habits into that valley, to demonstrate how people can produce food on small pieces of land and eat well.

4.	CHALLENGE TO COMMERCIAL FARMERS

Then I also want to issue a challenge to our commercial farmers.  Now as other speakers have said, of course we need our big commercial farmers.  Nobody is denying that.  But we are actually exporting sugar which is fine, but we are exporting sugar, specifically on the North Coast and in areas where possibly the poorest of people in this country are living.

I want to say to those in particular, sugar cane farmers but also other commercial farmers, what are your management objectives?  Is it minimum labour maximum profit?  Now I am not so naive to think that a business must run at a loss.  I mean that is stupid and I am not suggesting that.

If your management objectives are minimum labour, maximum yields into your pocket to continue lavish lifestyles while people are dying around you, then I actually think it needs to be re-examined because I think every business, every big concern also has a social responsibility.  I am pleading with those big farmers that your management objectives include or that your management objectives take cognisance of the social responsibility that you have.

You could possibly reduce the wall-to-wall sugar cane by 10%, 5%, whatever, put crops on that land that might actually bring as much money into your pocket, if not more, but that is far more labour intensive and will actually give jobs to many, many more people in your area.

Mr Minister, you have been quite imaginative in the report, in the types of farming ventures that we are looking at but I think we can do a bit more lateral thinking, we can be more imaginative.

Unless I have missed it, I have not seen either in your report nor have I heard from anybody, the potential for growing  traditional herbs and medicines on a commercial scale.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I understand that there is a big market for it.  I think we should do more market research.  I also understand that it would not only be the raw product, but that you could also from manufacturing skin care products and so on, that you could also actually do very well.  That is the other issue that I think we should look at as agriculture, rather than just selling the herbs or the spinach or the whatever, let us take a leaf out of the book of the wine farmers.  They grow the grapes but they also produce some of the finest wines in the world.

Now why can more farmers not combine the growing of things but then also producing the end product because then it adds much more profit.  We need a lot more market research on that.  I am giving but one example of traditional medicines.

5.	FINANCING

I also believe financing is crucial and we now have the restructured Land Bank.  I am confident that this newly restructured Land Bank will actually be very sympathetic to the needs of the emerging farmers, of the small scale farmers that so many people have spoken about.  So there is some light in the tunnel, but I do not think that is the end of the story because one of the major impediments to entry into the agriculture section is that people simply do not have the finance.  I hope that the Minister will also look into that.

6.	AGRICULTURE AND THE ENVIRONMENT

Then I hope, in conclusion, if I have got a few seconds left, hon Minister, agriculture and the environment.  Please agriculture, land and the environment are also inextricably linked.  When you drive around our Province and you see the extent of the soil degradation and the extent to which our environment is undermined it really is cause for serious concern.

I want to give you one example that is of great concern to me.  It concerns forestry which has now been handed to the National Department but I still think it makes the point.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On the edges of Lake Sibiya, may I just finish the question, blue gum plantations have actually now caused that lake, that rare asset to be receding because there are blue gums planted all around it.  One example.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me that indulgence.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  Our next speaker will be the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe who will speak for ten minutes.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I must thank you for this opportunity that you have given to me.  Firstly, I am sad because my sister is no longer here.  I wanted to reply to these things that she spoke about, namely that women in the rural areas when their husbands die their land is then taken away from them.  That is a mistake that my sister is making.  It is also a dangerous mistake if she continues with it.

I think that the time has arrived, Chairman, where people should stop, that is the people of the towns, should stop dictating to the people in the rural areas regarding their lives.  We must look carefully at this thing so that it does not cause trouble. When a woman has left the land which she uses it is completely protected.

I also want to touch on this matter that was raised by my brother, the hon member Mchunu, regarding the working together of Ministers of the National Government, working together with the Provincial Government.  I am grateful for this suggestion, and I agree that this is the plain truth, that they are the wealth of the nation.  The most important thing that we need to take heed of is that this wealth of the nation must be used in conjunction and in co-operation with each other.

The body has two feet.  If the two feet had to be crossed over you would not get anywhere, but if the two feet work in co-operation with each other they are able to succeed in the function that they were created to do.

In other words, if the Minister at National Government works in co-operation with the Minister in the Province I believe that things will move forward and continue in the way that they should.

Chairman, the black people in this land of ours indeed were not people who were afraid to work the land.  They were people indeed, if you look all over the land, it is obvious that people were motivated to use the land in an effort to produce in order that people may live.

There are certain things that cause people eventually to get out of this mode.  One of these reasons was the exploitation by the whites who came to this country, where people wanted to buy an axe.  An axe used to cost ten cattle.  In that fashion they were able to deprive our people of their wealth which they had.

Another thing, Chairman, was the establishment of taxes for our people in order to force people to come out of their homes, to sell what they had in order to pay their taxes, those taxes which did not benefit them in any way.  In the end our people realised that it was better for them to go to work in order to be able to pay the taxes.

In that way, Mr Chairman, it changed the minds of our people and caused them to realise that to go and look for work and to get a lot of money was a better way for them to live rather than to concentrate on agriculture.

Another thing also which caused this situation which prevails, I believe that this is what caused it, was the education which was given to us, the black people.  The education made it blatantly clear that if you worked in agriculture you were not a clever person, because the structures that were available at that time caused a person who obtained a first class, and who obtained a second class to be able to continue with his education.

The person who obtained a third class it was said that that person must go and do agriculture because all that was appropriate for him was to go and work the land.  That was the situation, Mr Chairman, that caused the mind of the black person to regard working the land as something which was inferior and something that was of no benefit.

I have a belief, Mr Chairman, that these programmes that are now being put in place and conducted by your Department, as you mention them in your speech, they will change the situation and the mind set of our people, and make them, that is our people, see that this is the way to live.

When these things happened the whites were able to use the opportunity to train their children so that they realised that the land was the way to live.  As far as the whites are concerned, if a white person does not have a farm that person is not complete, that person is not clothed completely as far as his life is concerned.  The ambition is to have a farm so that he can be a man.  It is because they realise that a farm is the life source for a prosperous person.

As a result of that, Mr Chairman, I think that if the people in the rural areas, as you have already said, could be developed and made to use the land as their forefathers did, it is my belief that people will succeed and triumph.  The problems of hunger and sickness will be solved as far as our people are concerned.

As we have very little land which is ours, it is my belief that this land could be made a success of.  We could produce the right quantities which are required.  I say this because I have a belief in this Government which we have, that programmes will be started and structures will be put in place which will cause the people, our people, to be remotivated in this regard and to realise that without using land you will get nowhere.

The hands of a man must have sand, in order to show that this is a man so that that man can become tomorrow's man in order to make the people live.  There is a belief that prevails in the land and that belief is that our land in the rural areas should be developed, that the system of ownership should be changed.  As an ~Inkosi~, as I am speaking, this is dangerous.  We are approaching danger.  I have a belief that if we make that particular mistake we are going to cause hardship and poverty for our people.  Our people do not get land because they have money or because they are rich, but our people get land because of their difficulty, then you get land in order to live there and to survive off it.

In other words, if a person is going to build a home in the areas of ~Amakhosi~ one looks at the needs of life and the necessities of life whether they are available close to that person so that that person is able to develop.  Once we have started this issue that we are talking about, I think this is a Western mind set that has been brought here to Africa.  If we do that we are creating problems.  We will end up having people that will be wanderers that will have nowhere to live, people that have no land.

In my view, Mr Chairman, I say let us develop what we have, because if I may just give an example, there is no one who exists who comes from the rural areas who could say that they have been molested.  I live with them.  The hon member Mchunu lives here in this land of ours.  His father and uncles are there.  I have never once molested them by saying this and that regarding land.  They are working the land, they are producing what they are producing, they keep it in their storerooms and they sell it to the community.

They are not molested in any way, by being molested perhaps mentally in some way, but we are conducting ourselves in the African way.  A person that we do not allow or tolerate is a person who is up to mischief, hon member.  If a person is a mischief-maker we fix him.  That has happened right from the beginning.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Two minutes left].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I want to issue a warning here.  Let us not use the suffering of our people as a political football, because we will create danger.  There is danger in that.  I have a belief that if we could work in co-operation with each other our people will triumph.  We must not dare to make sport of the suffering of our people and turn it into a political football.  You find an important person who goes around interfering, he interferes, that lowers him in my estimation.  It lowers the dignity of his position.  Let there be proper communication so that we can work together.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you very much].  Our next speaker on the list will be the hon member Mr Combrink who will speak for ten minutes.

MR H L COMBRINK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity to take part in this budget debate.

Statistics and records shows us that KwaZulu-Natal's population is presently estimated as being 8,5 to 9 million, the highest of all the provinces in South Africa.  This represents about 27% of South Africa's population, living on less than 10% of its area.  Approximately 61,5% of the Province's population live in rural areas and 38,5% in urban areas.  With the current growth rate at 2,3% per annum, projections indicate that by the year 2020 the Province's population could be in the vicinity of 16,5 million.

This Province of KwaZulu-Natal is relatively young with an estimated 40% of the total under 15 years of age.  Given this high proportion of young people, the growth rate has an in-built momentum.

I had to mention these figures again this year because all of us in this Province must eat every day of our lives and I am sure that it is common cause that the need to produce sufficient food, fibre and fuel at economic cost, is one of the greatest challenges facing our Province today.

In the past "home food security" was mentioned on several occasions and our Premier Dr Ben Ngubane, stressed this topic on various occasions.  The problem is that our people, what little money they have, is all too often spent on buying food which they could have produced themselves.

In the rural areas of our Province vast land for agriculture is available and has been used, but unfortunately not to the full extent and potential for the benefit of the people.  That is where the Department of Agriculture must do their utmost to raise the standard of agriculture for the poorest of the poor to produce their own food and have the freedom to spend their money on consumer goods other than food.

Better agricultural production could help alleviate the massive unemployment dilemma in our Province, and it is also known that investment in this sector creates up to 100% and more employment opportunities.  We all know that the Province is called the food basket of the Republic of South Africa but so much more could be done to help our people.

In the 18th Century it was written, and I quote:

	The State is like a tree, the roots are agriculture, the trunk is the population, the branches are industry, the leaves are commerce and the arts.  It is from the roots that the tree draws nourishing sap and it is to the roots that a remedy must be applied if the tree is not to perish.

This brings me to the following, that would seem to me to be the inability to transpose this and the valuable information in the Department into hard practice.

I am on record complaining to the Department to be more user-friendly and available to the common man.  Working in my constituency very often the following questions are put to me, namely where will we get help?  Who can we get help from?  Telephone numbers.  Contact persons etcetera.

On Friday, 9 April 1997 I was visiting communities in the ~Amakhosi~ area of Simandthangetsha, and people were in their seventh heaven after we had discussions with them on development and progress in the agricultural sector.  I also promised them that in the month of June or July the newly appointed Minister of Agriculture, the hon Minister Singh will be visiting them to help them in various fields of agriculture.

Finance in the small farmer's eyes is one of the biggest hampering factors there is.  They would like to buy tractors, ploughs, trailers etcetera to assist them in their endeavours to become real farmers.

This brings me to the question of the KFC and Itala Bank.  We need their expertise and a still greater and more aggressive campaign to touch deeply into the rural areas of our Province.  I would like to touch on the Land Bank, but even I have not got an idea where to start and end in this field and with the appointment of a new Chairperson for this institution in the likes of Mrs Slovo, I doubt it sincerely if there will be any progress for our small farmers of this Province.

Extension officers in the Department's employment is not enough to guarantee proper services to our people.  Plus/minus 350 of these people are employed in the Province and too much work is done by them to assist big commercial farmers and thereby not concentrating on the small farmer.  Hopefully this will be sorted out with a visit by the Minister and officials to my area in the near future.

In passing by I would like to mention the fact that Mjindi farming must be looked at by a Portfolio Committee in detail as well as the Department and the Minister, because details given to us on the operation of this farming community seems to me not that sound at all.

Another area of great concern to me, Mr Chairman and to the Portfolio Committee, is the fact that I personally travel between 6 000 to 8 000 kilometres a month in this Province on our road network, and the unbelievable total of cattle and goats etcetera roaming unattended on our roads are unacceptable.

The hon Mr Volker asked the Minister of Transport last month to produce figures related to animal accidents and fatal statistics.  Those figures were distributed and a shocking number of people in this Province were either badly injured or killed.  Can the lives of human beings be calculated in money terms?

A comprehensive report by our legal advisor Mrs Turnbull was tabled to the Portfolio Committee on laws related to fencing etcetera in this Province.  I would therefore urge the hon Minister to set up a task team between his Ministry and that of Transport, Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government to look into this very important matter.

I would like to invite members to travel on the road between Piet Retief and Pongola to realise what I am talking about and not even talking of the bad state of the road in this area.  It is supposed to be the main road between the Reef and our Coast called the N2.  The number of animals on this road is something to dream of.

Touching on the above topic it also goes hand in hand with pounds in KwaZulu-Natal.  What happened to the Pounds Bill?  In the past a lot was said on the pounds and the unfair practice of these institutions.  The hon Mr David Ntombela will be my witness in this regard.

Unions complained about them and we as members of the portfolio worked on this issue a few times.  Will it be possible to have public hearings planned for January 1997 finished before August of this year to be brought to this hon House before the end of this year?  I therefore request the hon Minister to attend to this law immediately.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MNR H L COMBRINK: 

With an amount of plus/minus R340 million in this budget allocated to agriculture, I sincerely hope that the best will be done to help our rural people.  I would also note that everything that I have said is not always criticism but I personally will give your Department a distinction as a pass rate, hon Minister.

With these few words my full support to you, sir, on your appointment and your staff for the future.  A significant goal reached this year was the amalgamation of the two major unions in KwaZulu-Natal now known as Kwanalu.  I will therefore give my full support to this budget.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Combrink.  Just to put the members at ease.  We are not going to break for lunch now.  We will continue until we finish the debate and then we will take our lunch break.  In the interests of our stomachs I will request the members to be very brief, those who have a lot of time to speak, so that you can go for lunch earlier.

Our next speaker is the hon member Mr Naicker who will speak for seven minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, may I query something.  It is the constitutional rights of people, we are all workers in this country, to have lunch at the appropriate time.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, that is true, Mr Rajbansi, but also in the interests of time so that we can finish our business within the allocated time, let us just sacrifice a few minutes then we can take our lunch break.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Chairman, Mr Rajbansi has already taken three of my minutes.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  I may say that I went and had my lunch in my car.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Chairman, this House notes the clarion call made by hon members towards development throughout the debate, and agriculture falls within the orbit of the core of development, but perhaps due to unavoidable circumstances the Department of Agriculture has had three Ministers and now the fourth Minister, the hon Mr Singh.

I want to personally congratulate the hon Mr Singh, whom I have known for many, many years in the public field.  I would be failing, Mr Minister if I do not mention his late father-in-law, the late Mr Ramphal, a dedicated farmer and a dedicated public representative, who was deeply involved in agricultural matters.  I am certain that the hon Mr Singh would do justice, just as his late father-in-law did, in this particular field.

Having said that, I am first of all pleased that this Department was one of the first to submit its amalgamated structure to the Provincial Service Commission.  I am surprised about that, because from day one I have been personally concerned about structures, and to hear that this Department has been successful, I must congratulate the administration for those efforts.

Now coming straight onto the situation as far as the peasant farmers in this country are concerned.  Throughout the years the subsistence farmer, the intercrop farmer and the non-bona fide farmers were literally non-existent.  The hon Minister is aware of it.

I therefore urge that a co-ordinated and integrated approach, as you have mentioned in your report, sir, of all sectors of the farming community will form part of the departmental structural policies.  Policies, not the heretical policies but policies.

The creation of conditions, whereby rural households and local institutions in the agriculture and household development can become more independent and self-reliant.  Like housing with its support centres, agriculture should embark on a full scale support centre as an agricultural institution, to facilitate agricultural education and develop further its extension officers, to reach out to every corner of our Province in promoting agriculture.

If the KwaZulu Finance Corporation is providing credit to the small scale farmers and the financial aid fund of the Sugar Association is also providing funds, I believe that all categories of agriculture should qualify for loans, and there should be a distinction between a bona fide farmer and a non-bona fide agriculture.  It is absolutely imperative and the hon Minister knows what I am talking about.

The very fact that the Credit Board's functions were not assigned to the provinces, this is a critical question as far as the delegation between Central and Provincial Governments are concerned, because the Provincial Government is on the ground.  This again does not amount to positive delegation of powers whereas we do not have a representative from this Province on the Board.  I want to urge the hon Minister and perhaps the hon members in this House to consider that aspect of it.

The South African Cane Growers Association is equipped technically with expertise such as chartered accountants, agricultural economists, agricultural scientists, agronomists.  The Natal Cane Growers Association lacks such expertise.  With this background, tertiary institutions are an absolute necessity in the total agricultural development of our Province.

50 000 hectares of land, still in the hands of Central Government, which should be redistributed to agriculture and the emerging farmers.  Mr Chairman, the hon member knows on the North Coast we have got a Zondela farm, which became a part of history.  I want to urge the hon Minister with respect to please resolve this issue that it be to the interest of the emerging farmers.

It is the mission of the National Department of Agriculture, to ensure access to agriculture and promote the contribution of agriculture to the development of all communities and societies at large and the national economy, in order to enhance income, food security, as many speakers spoke here, employment and quality of life in a sustainable manner.  It is all the more that delegation of powers to provinces cannot be overemphasised and the Ministry has to take cognisance of the 50th anniversary celebration in Quebec City in Canada.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR S V NAICKER:  Where it was established that especially in the sub-Saharan Africa where it is estimated at 300 million of the nearly 800 million chronically undernourished people of the world live.

I just want to conclude to the hon Minister, that the important issues, the funding of extension services.  That is the core of agriculture.  The Department of Agriculture and the South African Sugar Association Experiment Station has developed a joint programme to improve extension services to small scale cane growers.  This joint venture programme involved a secondment of special extension officers for a period of three years.  There should be no limitation as far as that is concerned.

I believe the extension programme need not be limited to sugar cane and should also involve advice on cultivation of other crops which are suitable for growing in the sugar cane area.

Currently there are four specialist extension officers involved in the joint venture.  Two are currently in the Department of Agriculture and two by SASEX.  With over 40 000 small scale growers this programme will have to be extended and the support of the Minister, again I say, cannot be overemphasised.

This hon Minister is fortunate, in the history of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, to have come into a period when Natal cannot be any more greener and this House calls upon that hon Minister to make this Province the garden province that it should be and be much more greener.

With this I congratulate the hon Minister, wish him well and he can expect my full co-operation, although I have not been given a carnation today, but I wish you well, Mr Minister.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  On the list I will now call upon Mrs J M Downs.  You have got four minutes to speak.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you.  May I join my congratulations to our newly appointed Minister, and I would like to give him fair warning, that although I am going to go a bit easy on him this time, because he has only been newly appointed, the next time we will be expecting great things from you.

I think that when we talk about empowerment of people there are some basic needs that have to be fulfilled first.  The first of these is give them a shelter, the second is make sure that they have enough to eat and the third is educate them.

I think that your Ministry is highly responsible for the second pillar of actually uplifting people.  I am glad to see that when you look at the spending patterns of the Department as contained in the public report, you have got a situation where 53% of the budget or 62% of the budget or 87% of the budget for that particular thing is spent on small scale farmers only.  For that I congratulate the Minister.

The one thing that I am concerned about is the technology and development training aspect, which is probably one of the most important aspects.  Only 37% has been spent on small scale farmers.  I hope that that is going to vastly change.

If I can echo the hon member Happiness' points about women.  This is where we really have a situation where most of this Province is living in the rural areas, where most of the agricultural projects are done and run by women, where most of the farming is done by women.  It is the place where I think the most need is.  I do not think that you have been allocated enough in the budget to actually fulfil the priorities of your Department, to give rural women particularly, enough training, to give them enough input to help them to understand things that I do not even understand.  Like brucellosis and all these other animal diseases to understand more science which I understand nothing about myself.

These are things which are, I think, absolute priorities.  I really believe that this budget has been short-shifted.  I believe that if we are to have healthy children, who are able to learn, they need to have enough food because it is quite a proven thing that not having enough food at early developmental stages, leads to lower levels of intelligence in our children.  This is really where the takkie hits the tar.  This is really where the work has got to be done.

I know that your work is cut out for you in changing an agricultural department that was designed to service commercial farmers, into an agricultural department that is going to be designed to serve the needs of the vast majority of people in our rural community.  I wish you well with that exercise and I hope you give it your highest priority.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  I now call upon the hon member Mr Tarr.  You have got ten minutes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to start off by dealing with the question of rural development.  I am very pleased to note that the Department is involved in rural development efforts and is also undertaking a number of joint initiatives with other departments.

The literature on development economics is filled with details of rural development projects that have failed.  There seems to be now consensus internationally and throughout a whole range of developing countries that rural development only succeeds where in fact a whole package of infrastructural items are put into place.

For example, for rural development to work, the Minister has already mentioned it, we need to be looking at roads and other infrastructure like electricity.  We need to be looking particularly from the farming sector, we need to be looking at market information.

The evidence in other African countries is that emerging farmers can produce, but they need the right incentives and they need the right information to do it.  We obviously need extension, credit facilities which the Minister has spoken about and also education.  Not only extension education but education on a whole range of subjects and clinics.

So the problem is how do you co-ordinate, putting all these infrastructural items into place when in fact there are a number of different departments who actually do the job.  That is a problem which faces our Minister.  I am wondering whether one of the solutions that we should be looking at in this House, is towards creating a Portfolio Committee dealing specifically with rural development.

That committee then could have an oversight of what is actually happening in other Portfolio Committees in the House, and in some way try to sort of co-ordinate efforts, so that we do not find things being done piecemeal by the Department of Health here and something by the Department of Education there and something by the Department of Roads elsewhere.

This is a very difficult logistical problem to deal with, but I believe that we need to look at ways and means of doing it.  Maybe this House could look at the Portfolio Committee, maybe a subdepartment in the Minister's Ministry or a committee consisting of members from different departments could be created.  I think that is probably in place.

The second thing I would like to talk about is land capability assessments.  I am very pleased to see that this has actually been done.  The problem is that it is not good enough to do it, it is actually necessary that somebody somewhere should make sure that in terms of the land capability assessments for a particular area or region, that is the use to which the land is put.

Now clearly that is not happening.  We know that is not happening and clearly again we need some political decisions which may be unpopular in some cases where it is actually done.

Now in order to do this, I mean let us take some areas for example, the communal areas which normally fall under ~Amakhosi~.  We need to be consulting and talking with ~Amakhosi~ and the Minister has mentioned that already in terms of the land capability assessments for their areas.

In terms of land use in those areas, and I put these as suggestions, we should be looking at innovative ways of making land available.  For example, why can there not be leaseholds in areas like that?  It means that people who are using the land pay some rental and that comes back into the tribal authority.  That is a suggestion.  We need some research to be done on that in consultation with ~Amakhosi~.

Why can we not have communal herd management systems, where there is a grazing system worked out for the whole area, the herd is managed as a unit, as an entity?  That is happening and I have been involved in these systems in the old Bophuthatswana.  It is happening in Botswana for example.

Another system for example in terms of grazing - determine a carrying capacity in an area and issue permits for grazing rights, and there are only so many permits.  Then the permits themselves acquire a market value and can be exchanged between people who wish for grazing rights and that money can then go back into the tribal authority.

None of these in any way whatsoever threaten the tribal authority or the ~Inkosi~ with regard to his control over the land.  None of those things threaten him at all but it actually gets a market mechanism going, it generates money to come into the tribal authority which can in fact be used for development purposes.

The last thing I would like to talk about very briefly is the question of rural villages.  My colleague Mr MacKenzie has raised it on a number of occasions, it is something we need to look at.  We have a very simple problem definition here.  We have many workers living on farms.  Now those people living on farms have got no security of tenure whatsoever.  It is also very difficult to provide services to those people because they are scattered so widely around.  Services in terms of schools, water, sanitation, electricity.

So the idea is to create rural villages so that farm workers can then have freehold tenure somewhere.  They have got security of tenure.  Secondly, once they have got freehold tenure somewhere and they are grouped somewhere you can provide services, electricity, water, sanitation, schools, clinics.

Rural villages will not work, and the literature shows us, if you simply parcel off pieces of land in remote areas and say, "There is a village get on with it".  It will not work that way.  What we need is a situation where we create townships and these townships I believe should be attached to existing townships that already exist.  Take small townships, there are plenty of them around Kranskop, Nottingham Road, add more land to the townships, make that land available to workers, who actually work on the neighbouring farms, and then you already have a place where there is an infrastructure, there are roads, there is electricity, there are shops and there are facilities.

I think with that as a background rural or agricultural villages attached to existing townships can work.  These are just a few ideas and I certainly hope that the Minister will give them some thought.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  On the list I will now call upon the hon Mr T S Mohlomi for 14 minutes.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Like all other previous speakers I would like to start by congratulating the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Agriculture and wish to state that from the side of the ANC we will give him our full co-operation in doing his work.

One of the aims as stated in our statement of intent or our mission statement is to maximise food production in this Province.  Of course, as we all know, that any nation that cannot feed itself and its people is doomed to failure both economically and otherwise in terms of hunger, diseases and so on.  We know that being able to feed yourself goes a long way towards economic growth and ensuring price stability in the whole economy, not only of agricultural products but of other products, which may be linked to agricultural products.

Therefore I would say that that is a noble aim and they should work tirelessly towards making sure that we do achieve the maximisation of our production with the resources that we have in this Province.

KwaZulu-Natal is also blessed with a good climate.  Of course we do not have a lot of land that is arable, but at least the little land that we do have has to be used to its maximum capacity, in order to ensure that we become the food basket for the whole country and for our people in this Province as well.

I say that one area which is closest to my heart, as I said when I was debating on the economic affairs vote, is the promotion of small farmers, small emerging farmers.  That will go a long way towards job creation in this Province, which I believe we need most desperately.

We know that if we do promote small farmers those people are going to rely mainly on manpower for their production whereas some of these big farms they can mechanise, they can throw away people and bring in big tractors and harvesters and so on.  So it is very, very important for us to ensure that we promote small farmers because those are the people who are going to create jobs especially in rural areas, which are so hard hit by unemployment.

That will also ensure that there is an equitable distribution of incomes between urban and rural people and of course as we know, that with the distribution of income, once the unemployed people in rural areas become employed, there will be a multiple effect even in rural areas where you will find that more jobs are created.  Secondary industry will go in there because people now have money.  They can buy soft drinks, they can buy clothing, they can buy other things and in that way industry is going to be attracted to invest in rural areas in such a way that in the long run we may not find the difference between the rural and the urban areas.

I believe that should be our aim to try and develop the rural areas to be as good as urban areas.  We must have cinemas there, we must have stadiums, we must have everything in those areas.  That will not happen if people do not have money in those areas.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  Put one casino there and it will finance everything.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  The promotion of small farmers must be seen as an important job creator which is going to ensure that there is rural development in the true sense of development.  That will also ensure an equitable distribution of income.  That can help in the sense that people will not be forced to come from rural areas to go and seek work in urban areas, if there is employment right there where they are and industries are attracted through incentives to go there and invest and open up factories.  That will ensure that even the urban areas are relieved of the high levels of unemployment that we see, of informal settlements that emerge because people go to urban areas to look for jobs.

I would like to divide small farmers into two.  The formal, which I will say those are the people that we have to promote to become commercial farmers themselves but there are a lot of informal sectors also among the small farmers.  I am talking there about co-operatives.  In fact I have personal experience of this.  My mother was the chairperson of a small gardening co-operative before she left us.

In fact I am happy that the Minister did address this question, it is going to be very important for the Department to look at how we can promote these small gardening co-operatives, and there are many of them, especially in the townships themselves.  As I say, my own mother was a member of a co-operative.  The Nhliziyonye Gardening Co-operative.

In fact a group of about 12 women came together, they were making use of all these plots of land which were vacant.  In schools they were doing gardening there, in all the other open fields they were doing a lot of gardening there.  In fact they were able to save something like R500,00 a month in their kitty by selling some of the products that they produced in these small gardens.

So it is going to be very, very important to look at this sector, especially in the urban areas as to how we can ensure that we support them.  I remember that they were able to raise funds from the German Consulate at some stage.  They needed wheelbarrows, they needed watering cans and so on and through the assistance of some advisors they were able to raise some money from the German Consulate, that gave them money and they were able to buy the very equipment that they needed.

So this is a viable sector in the urban areas because it will ensure, as well, that we ensure food security and alleviate hunger that people are facing in the urban areas, besides being a source of income for those unemployed women in the townships.

Another area that I would like to touch on is the area of co-operation between the various departments.  I think a lot of speakers have made mention of the need for co-operation between the various departments in order to ensure an integrated approach to rural development.

The first Department I would like to deal with is the Education Department.  I think that Department is very, very important because as we have said, a lot of us, especially African people or black people in this country have been denied training in agriculture.  Even at schools it was made to look like a subject for those who were not intelligent enough.

We need to change that around.  I think that it is high time now that school kids, there must be an integrated approach between the Agriculture Department and the Education Department in ensuring that we promote agriculture as a subject at schools.  We must change the whole thing, the whole perception by school kids that agriculture is not for the bright ones.

In that way we are going to ensure that we promote agriculture from school level and then we will be able to get a lot of people who are going to be trained either as extension officers or in research departments and so on.

Again we need to do a lot of research into scientific methods of farming.  I am happy that the Minister did mention this morning that they have some co-operation with India.  They will be sending people to be trained there.  That is another important thing.  We need to look at what other countries have done in promoting scientific production in agriculture because as we all say, the population is growing but the land is not growing.  So we need to be able to use scientific methods to get maximum output out of the limited land that we have.

Therefore it will be important to look at what other countries are doing in promotion of agriculture and in maximising the agricultural production.

The Netherlands is another good example where we can send our people to go and learn methods of farming.  It is a very small country but they are able to farm so effectively that they are able to feed their whole population.  So we have to look at those examples.

In fact, when I was there we did visit some farms.  Very, very small farms but production there is at a very high level.  So I think we have to embark on some sustained programmes of trying to look at what is happening in other countries and bring that knowledge here.

Israel is one other country.  In the kibbutz where we can learn a lot from how they are running the agricultural production.  China as well.  The hon Mr I C Meer is reminding me.  Those are countries that we have to look at.  I mean Israel is a good example because it is like a desert but those people are able to feed themselves from a desert.

So we do have to integrate our approach in terms of scientific research, in terms of learning from other countries and also training.

Another important Department is the Department of Transport.  I think the Minister did allude to duplication which is happening, where the Department of Agriculture is involved in road construction and so on and the Department of Transport as well is also doing the same thing.  If we want to have an integrated approach to development in rural areas, there has to be closer co-operation between those two departments, so that we ensure that we do not waste our resources and we make good use of whatever little money we have in the Province.

The Department of Health has been mentioned.  It is very, very important for us to co-operate with the Department of Health in ensuring that we educate our children about good healthy eating habits.  That is going to be of crucial importance.

Another area is the area of ~Amakhosi~.  A lot has been said about ~Amakhosi~, and I believe that for the Department to be successful, especially in those areas which are under ~Amakhosi~, there has to be close co-operation between the Department and ~Amakhosi~.  There must be a lot of consultation in that area.

That will help to prevent things like soil erosion which we know is so rampant, especially in areas which are under ~Amakhosi~.  A lot of education too has to go into those areas.  We know that up to now areas which fall under ~Amakhosi~ have been neglected by the old Government.  So we have to start changing things around now, to pay a lot of attention to those areas because I believe that we are able to turn things around and make those areas very, very profitable if we educate our people in those areas and we get their voluntary co-operation because they understand what is going to happen.

There has been a lot of talk about the land use and so on.  I believe that if we can, as part of our education process, promote co-operatives in those areas which fall under ~Amakhosi~ we will be able to make those areas very, very profitable.

Of course there is also the issue of land reform.  A criticism of the Land Reform Programme is that the Government is reducing profitable farms into non-profitable two hectare, five hectare areas which are just going to develop into rural townships.

Again in that area I believe that if we can educate those people who are given that land that, in fact, for them to be profitable they have to form co-operatives.  I think there is nothing wrong with co-operatives.  Of course some people say no that is not acceptable, but co-operatives I believe can be a way out of the situation that is likely to develop where you find that instead of redistributing land you are redistributing poverty, because people cannot farm those pieces of land profitably.

So we have to promote co-operatives in those areas where land is being given to people who have not had land up to now.  That might be one way out.

In closing, Mr Chairman, because of the time problems and in the interest of my stomach and the stomachs of the members here, I just want to touch on some things.  The public profile of the Department.  Up to now this Department has not had the profile that I think it deserves.  This is a very important Department but we have heard very little in our mass media about what the Department is doing.

So I think that with the new Minister and new ideas we will begin to hear over the radio or over the mass media what the Department is doing.  I think the Minister of Agriculture can take his queue from the Minister of Transport.  Almost every week we hear that the Department is doing this, the Department is doing that, it is calling a workshop, it is calling a mass meeting and so on.

I believe that we have to do the same because this is a very, very important Department, especially when it comes to the issues of land redistribution.  People lack information about that.  I believe that as the Department of Agriculture, it is our duty, although it is not our responsibility as such to deal with land matters, but it is our duty to inform our people in the Province about what is happening there.

So we need to take a much higher profile in the public media, make use of Xhosa Radio and so on.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But the Minister of Transport works very hard.  He is honest and sincere.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Well, I believe that Minister Singh too is a hard worker and we are prepared to assist him to work hard in ensuring that this Department becomes as good as the Minister of Transport's Department.

Another area I would like to touch on is the issue of consultation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  I would recommend strongly, Mr Minister, that we need a forum of some sort which would bring together all stakeholders, labour unions, I know some people are not very happy about that, but we need a forum that will ensure that all stakeholders are involved.  There is a very high degree of consultation.  In fact a lot of our problems that we say we have can actually be overcome by having some consultative forum of some sort where we can bring in all stakeholders.  We share views and share ideas and come up with a common vision.

Once again I wish to state that I am also in full support of this budget and wish the Minister well.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you very much Mr Mahlobo, I am going to ask the hon Minister, Mr Singh]. 

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  I would firstly like to thank all members who participated in this debate, and especially thank them for their messages of good wishes and congratulations and also for the very, very positive comments that have arisen in this debate.

There have been some criticisms but I believe they were constructive.  There have been some challenges which have been put forward to me and my Department.  I am sure that with the type of contribution that has been made by all members in this debate we will be able to collectively meet these challenges in the days ahead.

Now if I have to start meeting those challenges here and now, then I believe I must practice what I preach and practice what so many other hon colleagues have preached here during the debate.  ~Inkosi~ Khawula, the hon Mrs Cronje and so many, in fact every speaker spoke about the importance of food to all of us and to the economy of this Province.

I believe that at this moment in time, food is important to all of us because we have gone way past our lunch hour due to no fault of my own.  So, Mr Chairman, I would ask hon colleagues to forgive me if I do not respond to all the issues that have been raised.  I take them very, very seriously.  My officials have been taking copious notes and sending me replies, but I am not going to dwell on those replies.  I am going to interact with each member and I believe that today's process of trying to get my budget approved, is just the beginning of a long process ahead of us.

Today is a talk shop where all of us, including myself place on record to the public how we intend to see agriculture develop in the next year.  So a lot of work, like the hon Mrs Cronje and other members have said, lies ahead of us.  I hope that we could meet and talk about all these proposals that you have made.

When I was in India on a parliamentary visit, I was very interested to note that they have a Portfolio Committee called a Committee on Government Assurances.  I brought back a lot of literature and maybe I could share it with the hon colleagues at some time.  There is a committee headed by the leader of the opposition or somebody from the opposition, that monitors all the statements that are made by Ministers in the Government and ensures that they deliver on whatever they say.

So I think at some time or other we should form that kind of committee so that there is a careful monitoring of what we all "Do", whether in the Executive or as members of the Legislature.

A number of issues were raised.  The whole question of co-operatives, which I fully support, and I will be launching an association of co-operatives next week, and my Department is giving that association full support.  Drought, the hon Baba Ntombela raised the question of monies to black farmers.  Yes, I can assure you that there is going to be a shift in emphasis in spending where rural communities, small farmers are going to benefit the most from what our Department does.

We received R65 million in drought money.  R7 million was paid out to some farmers and 10 566 people were employed over a period of two and a half months using that money.  Another R39 million will be spent on rural roads, and we will be interacting with the Department as we have already started interacting with the Department of Transport on these rural roads.

Legislation yes.  The hon Mr Nel and others, I think it came from Baba Ntombela as well and the hon Mr Mchunu raised a question of the Pounds Bill.  It is a matter of concern to me.  In fact the hon Mr Jeffery brought to my attention an incident which took place somewhere in Ladysmith.  I will be looking at this seriously.  My Department informs me that the Bill has been approved by Cabinet.  I have not seen the Bill as yet but I would like to go through the Bill myself and together with the Portfolio Committee members we make our input on that.

It is a matter of concern that many of our people in the rural areas have to travel many kilometres to go and retrieve cattle that have been impounded.  I think we need to develop a partnership in our communities where the people themselves who own the cattle, the Department of Transport and my Department try and come up with some cohesive process of sorting out the problems of pounds and cattle.

Land redistribution yes, very important.  We are going to give it our full attention, hon members.  Security of tenure.  I was informed last week that there is a Bill that is going to be presented to the National Assembly, which is the Extension of Security of Tenure Bill.  We as agriculture are looking at that Bill but the hon Minister Miller's Department is more involved.  We will bring that Bill forward to the Portfolio Committee and see what kind of input we could make, because we are committed to ensure that there is security of tenure for all our farmers.

Agricultural villages yes, very good ideas from the hon Mr Mike Tarr.  We will take that forward.  Technology, emphasis on that,  the hon Mrs Downs, we will be looking at that.  Rural development extension officers, something we are going to place a lot of emphasis on.

The Mbazwana sawmill, reference to that in our report.  I must just add that that function has now been taken over by the Department of Forestry nationally, but I take the point made by the hon Mr Nel.

Traditional herbs yes, very, very good point.  I was fortunate to address an association of traditional healers and herbalists within two days of my appointment, and I expressed to them the need that we need to interact more with them as a Department and our extension services should also be extended to the traditional healers and the herbalists.

Communication yes, extremely important and I trust that the Department of Agriculture is going to feature very, very prominently.  The hon Minister Ndebele has been taking people for a ride in his Transport Department, let us hope that we can get onto that bus as well and ask people to join us on that ride.  I am sure that we will go for a higher profile.  Who better, Dr Sutcliffe, to talk about taking people for a ride, because I am in the transport industry.

MR W U NEL:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.  Is it in order for the hon Minister to accuse another hon member and Minister of this House of taking people for a ride?  [LAUGHTER]

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Chairman, I am sure Minister Ndebele takes it in the spirit that it is intended.  Thank you.

Mr Chairman, finally once again thank you very, very much to all colleagues.  I am sure there is a serious commitment here from all of us, including the members who do not belong to this Portfolio Committee to make KwaZulu-Natal a winning Province as far as agriculture is concerned.  Thank you very, very much to all of you and thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We have now come to the end of the list.  So we will adjourn for lunch till half past two.  Thank you.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 13:46
	RESUMED AT 14:30

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to deliberate on the Education vote and I wish to call upon the hon Minister Zulu to address the House.

VOTE 5: DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Chairman, hon members of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Parliament.  It is my privilege to present my Budget for the 1997/98 financial year for your information and kind consideration.

By way of introduction I wish to inform the House of certain significant events and activities which have taken place during the course of 1996 and early 1997 and which, I believe, will have a bearing on future developments in education in this Province.

1.1	RECONSTRUCTION OF THE EDUCATION AND CULTURE SERVICE IN THE PROVINCE

1.1.1	PORTFOLIO

The portfolio I occupy has remained unaltered in its wide reaching an multifaceted nature.  In addition to the fundamental provision of educational and cultural services to the community of KwaZulu-Natal, I also bear responsibility for the development and articulation of out-of-school sport and culture, museum services, monuments, public and institutional libraries and language and archival services.

The proper structuring and organisation of this portfolio has been a complex task and there are current discussions on transferring functions of youth affairs to the Office of the Premier.

1.1.2	ORGANISATIONAL STRUCTURE AND ESTABLISHMENT

I reported last year that the finalisation of the organisational structure and establishment of the Provincial Department of Education and Culture had proved to be far more complex than first envisaged.  The finalisation of the appointment of the management cadre in the Department is still incomplete, although the following appointments in addition to the appointments which I reported on last year have been made at Head Office:

Dr M A M Jarvis	:	Deputy Director General; Administration
Mr J Z Sibisi		:	Chief Director: Support Services;
Mr I N Nkosi		:	Chief Director: General Administration;
Mr R Pohl		:	Chief Director: Education, Planning and Development.

The following Directors have also been appointed in addition to those that were reported at the last sitting:

Mrs S Lapping	:	Legal Services
Dr M Naidoo		:	Examinations
Dr S Z Mbokazi	:	Teacher Training
Mr M P A Mkhize	:	Audit and Financial Control
Mr J A Kotze		:	Human Resources
Mr F D Ingram	:	Technical Colleges

Delays in appointing the regional Chief Directors have hindered the establishment and functioning of the eight regions.  Fortunately, appointments have now been made for seven of the eight regions.  The appointees are:

Dr G K Nair		:	North Durban
Mr J J Marais	:	South Durban
Mr E M Gcaba	:	Port Shepstone
Mr J S Kheswa	:	Pietermaritzburg
Mr A Nkabinde	:	Empangeni
Mr B H Martin	:	Ladysmith
Mr M R Nyembe	:	Vryheid

The process of filling certain posts of Chief Director at Head Office as well as the posts of Director at Head Office and in the regions has been slow and troublesome.  While it can be acknowledged that the Provincial Service Commission is trying to carry out its mandate in an extremely careful way under a human rights culture, the rights of this Department have not been met.

In a massive restructuring exercise, demands for inordinate detail and new demands following virtually every submission, have tended to cripple the development and transformation of the Department.  A general lowering of morale and assertions by many that applications for severance packages are based largely on uncertainties about positions in the new Department, have followed.

The administration is in a particularly critical situation in that only top and middle management posts have been approved.  Lower ranked posts are currently based on the post establishments of ex-departments and are insufficient to offer effective regional and head office administration.  The instruction to carry out work studies of each function in order to be able to determine an acceptable norm is time-consuming and extremely difficult in this time of transition.  The quest for rationalisation has been posed to the Department even before restructuring has taken place.

1.2	LEGISLATION

1.2.1	ASSIGNMENT OF LAWS AND REGULATIONS

Although it is self-evident that the powers and responsibilities of a Minister reside in and derive from Acts of Parliament, concurrent powers and responsibilities between Provincial and National Ministries have led to debate and dispute.  The enactment of the South African Schools Act and the new Constitution, has led to a reappraisal of regulations which had been drawn up in terms of the KwaZulu-Natal Schools Education Bill.  Critical sets of regulations have been discussed by the Portfolio Committee and these will soon be promulgated with the appropriate Act.  The Premier has just signed the authorisation of the proclamation.

1.2.2	LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY AND SCHOOLS GOVERNANCE

A dedicated unit, known as the Schools Governance Training Unit, has been formed as a result of the requirements of the South African Schools Act, No 84, 1996, which stipulates in section 19(1) that the Head of Department shall provide:

(a)	introductory training for newly elected governing bodies to enable them to perform their functions; and
(b)	provide continuing training to governing bodies to promote the effective performance of their functions, or to enable them to assume additional functions.

Section 19(2) states that:

	The Head of Department must ensure that principals and other officers of the Education Department render all necessary assistance to governing bodies in the performance of their functions in terms of this Act.

In KwaZulu-Natal laws and regulations have been prepared for the implementation of the schools governance programme.

Despite a serious shortage of capacity and relevant expertise, funding restraints and the tremendous diversity in terms of cultural affiliations and customary convictions amongst the population in KwaZulu-Natal, this unit has done admirable work.  It is using R1,4 million made available to the RDP.

Procedural manuals have been drawn up and two circulars have been issued to schools, one regarding existing governing bodies which retain their current assets and liabilities, and a second one appointing principals as electoral officers for the election of parent, educator, non-educator members of governing bodies and of representative councils of learners and concomitantly representatives of this body on the school's governing body.

Numerous meetings have been held with stakeholders and numerous officials have been trained to devolve knowledge and skills to all role-players in the system.

Documentation is ready and we await the announced date by the National Minister of Education for the completion of the election of all governing bodies.  This job is going on smoothly and thanks to the efforts of the acting Superintendent General and the efforts of Dr Mdletshe.

1.3	PERSONNEL

1.3.1	VOLUNTARY SEVERANCE PACKAGES

The approval of the voluntary severance packages for approximately 3 000 educators, beginning in April, will assist in our thrust towards equity in personnel provision in schools in that certain excess posts will be vacated in advantaged schools and these will then be transferred to disadvantaged schools.  That is already going on and is proving to be not a very, very simple job.

Schools will face dislocations, but I am confident that the school communities support the principle of equity in personnel provision and will manage temporary dislocations.  The Department will assist in heavily eroded situations.

Substantial numbers of administrators have been leaving and are still leaving the service of the Department and this has resulted in an overload of work on many of the components in our three administration centres.

I have unstinted admiration for the educators and administrators who are carrying out their own and extra tasks with commitment and belief in the ideals of the new Department.

1.3.2	RIGHT-SIZING

The exercise to reduce posts in advantaged institutions and to create posts in disadvantaged institutions is based on a national agreement of the Education Labour Relations Council and is subject to annual review.  The unwillingness of many schools to participate in this exercise has slowed the process in the provinces as a whole.

It is my stated intention to reach equity in personnel provision as soon as possible in KwaZulu-Natal, and the employer representatives of this Province have my mandate to negotiate this.

The co-operation of all school communities, especially the advantaged ones, is requested to enable us to meet our objective of fair and just personnel provision.

1.3.3	STATISTICS

There has been undue difficulty in obtaining accurate statistics about schools and personnel.  The School Register of Needs has been completed by the Human Science Research Council and its partners and this computerised programme will be an invaluable tool for our educational planners.

A physical head count has taken place in our 5 400 schools and the resultant number of educators, which was established at 80 297, tallies closely with PERSAL payments and scotches the rumours of numerous ghost teachers in our system.  In addition to what the Human Sciences Research Council has done, there has also been a head count conducted by the Department and the numbers tally closely with the numbers that are in the PERSAL because it was on the basis of the numbers from PERSAL that people started talking of ghost teachers.  When we looked into the system in a scientific manner we could not find anything to substantiate these allegations.

Our Education Management Information System is operating, despite material and personnel restraints, but will expand to be able to offer statistical information across our Department.

1.4	REGIONALISATION

Regional Chief Directors, with one in an acting capacity, are operating in their regions.  Regions have been divided into districts and circuits and district managers and superintendents of management have been appointed, most of them provisionally, to carry out education management functions.  Support service personnel such as subject advisors and physical planners are also operating on a regional basis.

An elaborate and complex strategic plan has been devised for the regionalisation of administration.  Movement from the current three administrative centres is planned from July.  While physical requirements of buildings and equipment can be met, personnel needs pose difficulties.  The absorption process has been sorely affected through severance and through the necessity for the three operating administrative centres not to be denuded to the extent that they cannot carry out their functions.  Recruitment and training needs are high priorities and regionalisation will be slowed down until these needs are met.

1.5	TRANSFORMATION

The need for visible, quantitative change through the transformation of management systems, educational and youth programmes, skills training as well as material conditions in schools and other institutions, is a prerogative of my Department.  Unfortunately, the resources at our disposal and the national agreements under which we are obliged to act, have blunted our effectiveness regarding transformation.

We espouse the provincial vision of first getting the basics right, then concentrating on our core business.  At this second stage, it appears as if we will have to shed some of our traditional functions and that communities will have to take responsibility for these.  Thirdly, we will re-engineer our process on the basis of participative democracy.

Of particular interest to me are the rural poor and the poorest of the peri-urban dwellers and redress is required in the education of their children and of themselves.

1.6	EXAMINATIONS

The task of bringing former racially based examination systems together has been a formidable one.  There was need for changes in attitudes and the development of a new culture in examining and assessing for the Province.  Many examiners and markers found the new experience challenging and rewarding.

Some 141 000 fulltime and part-time candidates entered for the examination.  The Department was mindful of the fact that the task of setting and administering an examination would not be an easy one.

There were 86 608 fulltime candidates who wrote the examination.  Of these 53 397 passed, giving the Province a pass rate of 61,8%.  This provides a base from which we need to improve the quality of education in the Province.

There were five areas in which problems were experienced in respect of the November 1996 examinations.  These were:

	-	Leakage of question papers
	-	Refusal of sub-examiners to work
	-	Computer problems related to the release of results
	-	Court action by eight candidates; and
	-	Slowness in paying sub-examiners

In each of these cases the Department had to manage the problems as effectively as it could with limited personnel, but has gained experience from this initial exercise.

In respect of the Supplementary Examinations, there were over 30 000 entries.  The examination was concluded on 25 March 1997 with no major problems.

1.7	COMMUNITY AND ADULT BASIC EDUCATION

The Department offers Adult Education which comprises Adult Basic Education and Training, so-called ABET, and adult continuation education, ACE or Further Education, throughout the eight regions.  The present rate of illiteracy estimated at 3,5 million by the University of Natal : August 1996, necessitates the prioritisation of ABET over ACE.

ABET is a Presidential Lead Project and the injection of R5,4 million by the National Department of Education has led to the commencement of the transformation of the night school system into centres of quality provision.  This is done under the project name Ithuteng.

Now what is involved in Ithuteng?

1.	It is the training of teachings and others as ABET tutors who use the outcomes based approach to learning and teaching, using the most up to date methods and approaches as well as new learner materials.
2.	The assessment of adult learners and learner competencies.
3.	Evaluation to see whether transformation is taking place and to identify lessons for the Department from this new approach.
4.	The training of Centre Managers so that they can help with the new approach.

Courses offered are Zulu literacy, English Second Language and Numeracy in levels I and II of ABET.  To date 242 tutors have undergone 20 days of training.

Actual delivery of ABET lessons started in February at 44 centres.  This takes place alongside the ordinary literacy classes.  In 1998 the third level of ABET will be introduced at the centres.

Challenges facing the Province include:

*	The need to develop relationships with other departments such as Health, Agriculture and Housing;

*	The complete integration of the training in the system;

*	The appointment of dedicated ABET staff at all levels, that is provincial, regional, district, circuit and centre;

*	Lastly, the development of a clear process and time frames for monitoring and evaluation.

1.8	COLLEGES OF EDUCATION

The purpose of Colleges of Education is to provide a constant supply of well prepared and capable teachers to millions of school-going children and adults of this Province.  15 of these are doing pre-service teacher education while two are solely for the purpose of continuing professional development of teachers.  In 1997 a total of 17 990 students, both fulltime and part-time, have been enroled in our colleges.

Currently, the focus is on the education of the teachers of scarce subjects, namely technology, computer studies, science, mathematics and commercial subjects.

The Department is continuing to honour contracts with students who have signed for financial help in 1995 when funds were available.  In 1996, the contracts entered into with student teachers were for only one year, and could only be renewed if funds were available.  In view of significant cuts in the budget it is not possible to renew the contracts entered into in 1996.  This is regretted but unavoidable.

The Province has gazetted the new Colleges of Education Act of 1996.  Many colleges of education in the Province have already implemented conditions of the Act which provide for the democratisation and transformation of these institutions in line with other tertiary institutions in the country.

It is also significant that an agreement was reached at National level regarding the grading and the teaching staff provisioning of colleges of education with the goal of a student/lecturer ratio of 18 to one.

The implementation of this policy will result in colleges shedding staff as enrolment is reduced, following a National audit in 1995.  The audit gave warnings of overproduction of teachers, especially in the humanities.

Colleges of Education in KwaZulu-Natal are poised to lead in the new curriculum development initiatives in collaboration with subject advisory services especially in the implementation of the eight learning areas in Curriculum 2005.  Technology is one of the learning areas within the broad area of lifelong education and the national qualification framework, and possibilities of offering more courses in this learning area are being investigated.

The Department has successfully completed a capacity building programme funded by Danida which attended to the needs of staff in colleges of education in a three-pronged training programme, that is curriculum development, general governance and administrative support services.  This Danida is an organisation from Denmark which is giving support to this service.

In addition, the nationally funded Teacher Policy Support Project backed by Edupol of the National Business Initiative, will assist this Department in the establishment of policy on teacher supply, utilisation and development.

Finally, the teacher education section of this Department is co-operating with the National Department of Education in the Presidential Education Initiative which is led by JET.  This project promotes science and mathematics education.

2.	BUDGETARY PROVISION 

2.1	1997/98 FINANCIAL YEAR

I shall now discuss the financial provisions for my Department of Education and Culture.  The provisions have been made in accordance with the budget structure for the Province which encompasses ten programmes as approved by the Provincial Treasury.

The structure clearly reflects the objectives of my Department, allowing for efficient management in deciding the most economic means of achieving educational objectives.  The amount allocated for 1997/98 amounted to R6 124 339 million.  May I draw the members' attention to a correction there.  There was a print mistake there.  It is supposed to be R6 124 339 million instead of R6 124 684 million.  The amount is R6 124 339 million.  The amount is significantly less than what will be expended during the year 1996/97 which is expected to be R6 690 000 000.  What is significant there is that the amount allocated for 1997/98 is less than what is expended for the year 1996/97.

Perhaps hon members, who face criticisms of lack of educational delivery in their constituencies, would like to note that during the 1996/97 financial year many services were reduced in order to restrain a budgetary overrun.  Most new building plans were shelved, very little maintenance was done on deteriorating buildings and even travelling by subject advisors was halted.

These cutbacks reduced the effectiveness of the Department to carry out essential services.  Now we face a reduction of R500 million without considering inflationary pressures, on what was spent last year.

In order to conform to the amount provided for 1997/98, reductions have been applied to various programmes which in turn have resulted in allocations to certain supplies and services which are not sufficiently adequate to meet existing demands.  In addition, although it has been necessary to increase the provision for the acquisition of textbooks, cleaning services and the deployment of security services in volatile areas, from the original allocations, these are still far below the amounts spent in 1996/97.  Textbooks have been allocated R30 million as opposed to R75 million spent last year, security services have been reduced from R36 million to R15 million and cleaning services from R26 million to R14 million.  All these reductions are likely to lead to social unrest, because people do not understand when you explain such things, as is the catering services reduction from R50 million to R28 million.

It is my intention to look specifically at the imbalances of the past and to introduce measures that bring about equality and transformation in education.  The insufficient funds allocated will not only create hardships in many areas but will also have a negative effect on the thrust towards equity of my Department.  It is imperative that the question of additional funding be urgently addressed to enable my Department to deliver the standard of education that is desired.  I repeat, it is imperative that the question of additional funding be urgently addressed to enable my Department to deliver the standard of education that is desired. 

The eight regions of my Department have assumed the responsibility of controlling certain programmes of the 1997/98 budget with the most significant being programme 2.  This programme deals specifically with the Public Ordinary School education and has been divided as follows:

	Port Shepstone		R  450 176 000
	South Durban		R  718 608 000
	North Durban		R1 111 676 000
	Pietermaritzburg		R  676 223 000
	Ladysmith			R  613 834 000
	Vryheid			R  313 307 000
	Ulundi			R  811 793 000
	Empangeni			R  619 842 000
	Head Office			R   10 000 000

	TOTAL			R5 325 459 000

The allocation of funds to the regions was based on the number of pupils in each specific region together with certain historical trends.

2.2	ALLOCATION ACCORDING TO STANDARD ITEMS

PROGRAMME 1:	ADMINISTRATION

An amount of R214 274 000 is provided for personnel and administrative expenditure.  Salaries and other personnel related expenditure constitute the major items of expenditure.  Furthermore, provision is also made for increased rates implemented from time to time in respect of Transport, Subsistence, Communication and Postal Services.

PROGRAMME 2:	PUBLIC ORDINARY SCHOOL EDUCATION

The amount provided is R5 325 459 000 for the provision of education and instruction of pupils in pre-primary, primary and secondary schools.  R5 094 325 000 of the amount allocated constitutes personnel expenditure.  You can observe right away the problem we have right there.  It is intended to standardise the payment of postage, telephone and domestic services with effect from 1 July 1997.

The savings derived by the implementation of these measures will be used to introduce these services to institutions which currently do not enjoy these benefits.

PROGRAMME 3:	PRIVATE ORDINARY SCHOOL EDUCATION

An amount of R38 000 000 is provided for the payment of subsidies in respect of private ordinary school education.

PROGRAMME 4:	SPECIAL SCHOOL EDUCATION

An amount of R130 978 000 is allocated for the administration of special school education.

PROGRAMME 5:	TEACHER TRAINING

An amount of R176 208 000 is provided for the administration and management of 16 teacher training colleges, including two distance colleges.  Also included in this allocation is provision for the payment of bursaries at the rate of R4 500 for students who meet stringent criteria.

PROGRAMME 6:	TECHNICAL COLLEGE EDUCATION

An amount of R93 251 000 is provided for the administration and management of technical colleges.

PROGRAMME 7:	NON-FORMAL EDUCATION

An amount of R20 652 000 is allocated for the provision of Adult Basic Education.

PROGRAMME 8:	SPORT AND RECREATION ADVANCEMENT

An amount of R7 493 000 is provided for the promotion of in-school and out of school sport and recreational activities.


PROGRAMME 9:	ARTS AND CULTURE

An amount of R8 332 000 is provided from the education budget for arts and culture.

PROGRAMME 10:	AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES

An amount of R109 692 000 is provided for personnel and related costs in respect of Planning and Advisory Services, conducting of the Senior Certificate Examinations, the purchase of provincial motor transport, both departmental and subsidised, human resource development as well as the rendering of library and museum services.  Provincial library services face a significant cut, which will reduce the impact of literacy and development programmes in this Province.

2.2	ALLOCATION ACCORDING TO STANDARD ITEMS

The breakdown of the allocated amount of R6 124 339 000, according to standard items, is as follows:

PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE:  R5 608 978 000

This item, which includes salaries, service bonuses, home owner allowances, medical allowances, leave gratuities and other salary related items accounts for the major part of the Department's estimated expenditure, namely it accounts for 91,5%

ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE:  R64 453 000

The major items included under this heading are Regional Services Levies, subsistence, transport, communication, postage and bursaries.

STORES AND LIVESTOCK:  R99,816 000

Items such as stationery, printing, library books, textbooks, prescribed books, consumable stores and provisions are included under this heading.



EQUIPMENT:  R22,488 000

Under this heading provision is made for expenditure on items such as the purchase of official and subsidised vehicles, curriculum, computer, audio-visual equipment as well as office and domestic furniture and/or the hiring of equipment.

LAND AND BUILDINGS:  R100 000 000

Under this heading provision is made for the continuation of existing and limited new capital projects, minor new works, repairs and renovations, hiring of buildings and domestic services.  It should be pointed out that R20 million is allocated to domestic services, and that the remainder of R80 million cannot meet the committed building and maintenance programmes of R200 million.

PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES:  R70 267 000

Under this heading provision is made for expenditure on domestic catering, legal services, cleaning and gardening services.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS:  R84 099 000

Under this heading provision is made for the payment of grants-in-aid subsidies to various organisations such as the Monuments Council, Museums Association, local authority libraries, private schools, special schools etcetera.

MISCELLANEOUS EXPENDITURE:  R74 238 000

Expenditure in respect of bank charges, claims against the State and civil pension stabilisation account is provided for under this heading.

Mr Chairman, I now propose that the sum of R6 124 339 000, being the budget for my Department for the 1997/98 financial year be discussed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I wish to call upon the hon Mr Burrows to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you very much indeed, Chair.  I rise in my capacity as Chairperson of the Education and Culture Portfolio Committee of this Provincial Parliament, and wish to express my and the Portfolio Committee's thanks to the hon Minister for the report on his Department which was tabled today as well as the tabling of his comprehensive speech, which we are very pleased to note is made available in the three languages of this Province.  Thank you very much indeed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR R M BURROWS:  May I just note that we have in our possession a separate vote allocation for Education and Culture, that differs slightly from the original document presented to the House a week ago, and that is the one to which the Minister was addressing and it is the one which I will address.

The Portfolio Committee met on some 11 occasions during the course of the past year, and in addition held a number of public hearings with regard to legislation.  I wish to express as Chair of the Portfolio Committee my very grateful thanks to all members of the Portfolio Committee for the excellent manner in which the Committee has functioned during the past year.  I also express my thanks to my vice-chair Mr Joe Mkhwanazi.  Thank you very much indeed, Joe.

There have been extremely good relations on the Portfolio Committee on a non-party political basis with the interests of education at heart.  I think that we have made good progress in drawing attention to signal areas of difficulty within the Province.

There has been during the past year, good contact held with the Department in which departmental representatives have been present at all meetings of the Portfolio Committee and questions answered by them.

The size of the Department is one of the problems that we have to face within this Province.  This Department is the second largest State organisation; no, it is the second largest organisation in the whole of South Africa, the largest being the South African National Defence Force.  After that comes the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education and Culture, and there are times I sometimes think that the hon Minister would wish to be the hon Minister Joe Modise rather than where he is at the present moment.  I think, at least then he would have 50 generals to help him run the Department.

It is one of the things that as a Portfolio Committee we need to comment on, because I think it is something we are going to have to take up with the Executive Board of this Legislature, that in terms of the amount of information that we are being deluged with simply from this Department, it is extremely difficult for members to cope and keep tags on.  I do believe that it is time that this Parliament looked at the issue of supplying Portfolio Committees with advisors or advisory staff who can handle some of the vast amounts of information we receive.

May I, on behalf of the Committee also express our thanks to the Committee Clerks who served the Committee during the past year, Mr Anusha Yule and Mr Wiseman Nxumalo.

In terms of legislation, as the Minister has noted, we have had during the past year three KwaZulu-Natal Bills that have been gazetted and I am pleased to hear, now proclaimed.  The South African Schools Act was passed by the National Parliament and after some constitutional wrangling between various political parties was deemed by the Constitutional Court to have an overriding importance.

In terms of the legislation, that is the South African Schools Act and the KwaZulu-Natal School Education Act, various sets of regulations were drafted by the Department, 11 sets in all that passed before the Portfolio Committee.

These consisted of:

1.	Two sets of regulations for ordinary schools and for special schools for the election of school governing bodies.
2.	For learners organisations.
3.	For the admission of learners.
4.	For the creation of an education council that will replace the interim council currently known as KICCET.
5.	For the creation of regional councils and district forums in our eight regions.
6.	For hostels.
7.	For medical, psychological and dental examinations.
8.	For conduct of learners.
9.	For the establishment and control of school funds.
10.	For the registration and subsidy of independent schools.

These regulations totalling something over 250 A4 pages passed before the Committee in various sessions and are now back with the Minister for gazetting.  We believe that they will be instrumental in setting up an exact structure for education in this Province.

Turning to organisation and structure.  I wish to add a little to what the Minister has said.  We have had during the course of the past year an acting Superintendent General, the Secretary of the Department, Dr Sydney Shabalala.  We have two Deputy Director Generals and we have various Chief Directors appointed in the regions.

One of the great difficulties that has been experienced, and it is one that has been frequently raised in the Portfolio Committee, is that of obtaining permanent appointments at Director level.  These were advertised some two years ago and interviews have taken place.  We do believe that there are delays with the Provincial Service Commission that are utterly unacceptable, and those delays should be absolutely eliminated.

Turning to the administration of the Department itself.  We are pleased to see that the Department has come together during the course of the past year, but there are still delays within the Department's administration that the Portfolio Committee found these  unacceptable.  These included the late payment of salaries and difficulties regarding communication, both between the Department and schools themselves.  I must just note that it appears very strange that this Department has circulars that do not correspond numerically.  So where we should have say a circular starting at No 1 in January and ending at No 250 in December, they appear to be categorised and this does create some confusion in trying to keep an order of what is being told to schools.

In addition, there are still problems of communication with regard to acknowledgement of letters, faxes and matters such as this, both from members of the public and from members of Parliament.

If I turn to staff.  As the hon Minister has indicated, a head count has taken place.  We are pleased to note that this, I understand, is now the third that has taken place over the last four months, and it has indicated that there are some 82 000 educators in this Department.  In addition, we are informed that there are some 13 000 public servants, that are non-educators, who are also employed in this Department, making a Department in all of some 95 000 persons being employed.  The head count is still in progress and it is being checked against PERSAL and good results are being achieved there.

It is worth noting, as the hon the Minister has already done on two occasions, that the salary bill in this Department is one of its great difficulties.  If one looks at programme 2, that is ordinary school education, last year some 84% of that programme was spent on salaries, personnel and related areas.  That figure is now at 95,5% and unless we are very careful indeed there will be no funds for anything except teachers in the budget next year.  So obviously we have reached the point where there has to be a line drawn and there has to be a point of saying, "No, we cannot appoint any more teachers", or, "You are going to have to provide us with more funds from Central or Provincial Treasury".

May I also indicate in that connection, National criteria laid down in terms of the salary levels of educators and non-educators, and the numbers required in schools, one to 35 or one to 40, are parameters within which we are bound to work and over which we have no control.

Whilst the Province has been divided into eight regions only four of these are effectively working to their full and total capacity.  They are North and South Durban, Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg.  It is hoped that during the course of this coming year that the disparity between these eight regions and in particular the appointment of senior staff will be eliminated.

Turning now to finance.  I am pleased to note that there has been regular attendance by departmental finance officials at the Portfolio Committee during the course of the past year, and since July last year, every month the Portfolio Committee has received monthly expenditure statements, line by line expenditure, which we have been able to scrutinize.  I am glad to see that the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee of Finance is here and I can assure him that his colleagues on the Portfolio Committee scrutinize these very carefully every month.

May I also indicate, as the Minister has done, that we have an overall shortfall this coming year of R565 million less than the Department spent last year.  So before you even start anything you start with R560 million less, with the pupil population that has grown between 5 and 8% and an inflation rate at 9%.  So somewhere there is a problem.  I want to tell you the problem is exactly being found where we expected it, that is schools who are saying, "We have not got enough teachers or we have not got textbooks or we have not got stationery or we are not having our buildings built".

Quite frankly, there is a reality, if the budget is less then at the end of the day you are going to have to spend less.  It is one of the key areas that the distribution and priorities of the R6,1 billion in this Department has to be set by the Minister and the Portfolio Committee in discussions.  We were pleased to be involved as the Portfolio Committee in discussion of priorities over the past four or five months on this budget.

May I also indicate that we trust that the Minister will use his right of virement, to alter the internal allocations, particularly if it is found that the number of pupils and number of teachers is not that reflected on the sample survey found earlier in the year.

We need to raise some of the difficulties that the Portfolio Committee raised, that the concept of equity (fairness) is not the concept of equality.  We find it difficult to understand how we could allocate R70 million to a stationery allocation which meant that advantaged schools got the same pack of stationery as disadvantaged schools.  That we find unacceptable.  There has to be a balance, where the disadvantaged are getting the major receipt of funds in the resource allocations.  That is a reality we will all have to face.

May I also point out when we look at the schools themselves.  5 341 public schools with 2,8 million learners.  If you look carefully in the report you will understand the size of our problem.  If I may just highlight some of these resource problems.  Of those 5 300 schools:

-	No sanitation, that is no toilets at all, 551 schools
-	No on-site water, 1 900 schools
-	No electricity, 3 300 schools
-	No telephones, 3 500 schools
-	No fencing, 1 800 schools
-	240 schools are already in platoon classes morning and afternoon

Of our 5 341 schools, 1 239 school buildings have been found unsuitable for education.  There is our problem, and that is a reality we will all have to face.

In terms of the voluntary severance package which occupied a considerable amount of the time of the Portfolio Committee during the past year, some 3 300 qualified educators, experienced educators, left the Department at the end of last month.  Effectively this Department has down-sized, it has not right-sized, but that is a dispute I will leave to the employer/employee bodies, but it has affected individual schools.

The demonstrations, the sit-ins that were occurring in the Lower Tugela/Stanger area, are the direct result of this.  We all need to take note of the figures given to us in the Portfolio Committee, that when you classify the schools, there are 800 advantaged schools.  1 900 schools would remain the same and 2 700 schools would be disadvantaged and should gain staff.

Now it must be noted that the advantaged schools include all of those from the ex-NED, all of those from the ex-HOD and ex-HOR, and a number of schools that are already in the township areas.  So we need to understand that where the beard has to be cut it is going to cut a lot of schools which are not expecting it.  There are a lot of schools in this Province who think they are disadvantaged, who the Department sees as advantaged.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:   Thank you, Chair.  I am afraid some of the schools in the Stanger/Lower Tugela area fall into that category. 
In terms of the examinations, the Senior Certificate 1996, the Portfolio Committee found that these were not satisfactory.  We had a long discussion with the Director of Examination Services and he produced for the Portfolio Committee a comprehensive report on the examinations that we have all been through.

We need to raise with the Minister, if he is going to have a successful Senior Certificate Examination this year, he must increase the staff of that section.  Currently it should be 180, we understand it is only at 80.  They have got to re-examine having it in three centres rather than focusing it on one, and they have got to make sure they pay the examiners upfront rather than down the road.

If I turn to buildings and capital works.  We still have no up to date priority list of the building programme for this year, despite repeated queries.  I must say that the dispute between the Department of Works and the Department of Education as to who is doing what, to whom, and why, appears to have lost us another member of the IFP.  It is an issue that has now come up to Cabinet, it has been raised in all sorts of forums.  It really has to be resolved this year.

Finally Chair, I want to say that I would agree with the hon the Minister in his budget speech, that the funding cut for library services is a particularly swingeing one and if the Minister is able to find funds for the Provincial Library Services it would be of great benefit to the spread of library services and related matters into our rural and semi-rural areas.

Lastly, I am pleased to note that we are in the process as a Portfolio Committee of arranging, and we will be doing this in association with the Department of the Minister, some visits to schools in rural and semi-rural areas during the third term so that we can have firsthand sight of the problems in those schools.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  The next speaker will be the hon member Mr I C Meer who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Chairman, I thank you for drastically reducing the time that is on the paper to ten minutes.  It is not the first time that there has been an interference with my freedom of speech, but we will not comment further on that.  [LAUGHTER]

From the day when Hendrik Verwoerd stood up in the Parliament of the white racist regime in South Africa, and moved the Bantu Education Bill, to the time when the hon Mr Vincent Zulu became our Minister of Education is not a long time, but that time will ever remain in the memory of those who have dedicated themselves in the field of education.  My particular involvement began almost 60 years ago, because I am a veteran, so do not start calculating how young I was.

I can tell you, in 1941 before that famous speech or infamous speech of the Minister of Darkness, Dr Verwoerd, we had serious problems in this Province.  In that year I became the secretary of the Natal Teachers' Union, which was the first trade union of teachers registered as such in South Africa.  I had the proud privilege of working together with Albert John Luthuli who was then the president of the African Teachers' Union in this Province.  I had the privilege of working with Oliver Thambo, another teacher and a greater privilege also as a young person to work with Anton Lembede from Natal, who became a very powerful figure in giving us the philosophy of our education and the future of our people.

Now what is this fundamental change?  The whole philosophy has changed from education for a minority, to education for the majority.  I want our hon Minister of Education to bear in mind what has been said by the Chairman of our Portfolio Committee.  We as a Portfolio Committee are dedicated to advance this new philosophy in education under the Minister who is in charge.  We pledge our support as a united body for that purpose.

I want to stress that we have many problems that face us, but greater problems were faced by our forefathers in this country.  When Verwoerd stood up and spoke and those words must never be forgotten, we can forgive but never forget, he said that the African people must be trained for their fullest capacity as hewers of wood and drawers of water.  I am thankful for the impromptu remarks from the back.  I require them now and again.

Verwoerd was bound by the philosophy that every Indian in South Africa should be sent packing to India, repatriation, and until repatriation became a reality, there must be economic pressure brought against the Indian people in respect of every field in which they made progress, so that they would be made economically impotent and they would accept the repatriation policy.

In that philosophy our youth rose and gave us, eventually in 1976, a torch of liberty in the darkest period of the history of our country.  Today, when we want to plan that education, it is for us to find out what did Anton Lembede have to say on education.

Here, sir, I appeal to you that this is the 50th year of the death of Anton Lembede, who died at the age of 33 in July 1947.  Let us make the philosophy known to every child and every grown-up person involved in education no matter at what level.  He was KwaZulu-Natal's product and a great gift to all of us who were then studying under tremendous difficult conditions.

We have a historical duty to those people who led us in those dark days.  We have a greater duty now to carry out transformation.  Should we fail in that then we would have let our people down.

Our Premier is on record saying that R6 billion is a lot of money, let us stop complaining but get down to hard and constructive work.  While I support that, I want to say categorically that a very large amount of money due to this particular region has gone elsewhere.  We are owed billions of Rands of money that was never used on three generations or four generations of our people.

The Natal Education Department used to get five pounds per Indian child in school when NED controlled education of the Province.  After that three pound fifteen shillings was spent on Indian education, and the other diverted to the white education which was then getting 12 pounds per every white child.  We know that the Africans then were getting not five pounds, they were getting three pounds and less.

At the time when Albert John Luthuli became a teacher - salary three pounds a month for Africans and five pounds a month for Indians.  45% of Indian teachers were pegged at five pounds a month without any increment.  That is why I was elected as secretary of the trade union, I was not a teacher and I remember that very clearly in that great hall, an hon man from Pietermaritzburg, Mr Dookran stood up and said, "We shall not exploit our secretary.  I move that he be given six pounds a month", and the meeting unanimously carried that resolution and I earned a very powerful sum of six pounds a month during that period.

Now I say this money is owing to us.  Billions of Rands are owed to us.  We must get that money back.  I go further and say to members of the National Party who are present here, many of them did not play with the tar at the time so their hands are not dirtied, those who played with the tar of course they cannot complain if their hands are dirty.

Let me say this, that today every person in KwaZulu-Natal that you are serving as the Minister of the Education is paying VAT, is paying tax.  You are paying, I am paying, everybody is paying tax.  A large portion of that tax goes towards paying interest on the R39 billion debt created by the National Party for fighting the people's liberation struggle, not only in this country but in our bordering countries.  How much of that money is contributed by KwaZulu-Natal each year?  The minimum amount that one can calculate is over R9 billion.

Voices are being heard at present.  The organisations that are operating within the community, they have demanded collectively that this debt be written off.  If that debt is written off there will be R9 billion further available to KwaZulu-Natal, which is going to paying interest only on that amount that has been borrowed.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR I C MEER:  And again the churches, two churches have joined the NGOs, that is the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church in this regard.  I would have been pleased if the hon the Premier was here.  I want our Cabinet to apply its mind to this fundamental question whether we in fact owe this money, not debt incurred by us but the debts of the sinners of the past and that we should be cleansed of that debt.  If they do that we will have all the money we require for the building of extra schools with R9 billion a year added to important needs of this Province.  We can definitely fulfil your promise and the promise of people like Anton Lembede when he said, "I will spend the rest of my life for the liberation of my people and to see that they get at least a fair share of equity, equality or parity in education".

That is the task before us and history demands that we carry out the task.  We have a system of education, that of the total amount we spend on education not more than 70% should go towards salaries and the balance should go towards building more classrooms seeing that we get adequate provision for our children.  We want excellence, definitely we do, and excellence means many things.  Excellence in the founding faith of Christianity meant that there was a greater excellence in the stable than in the more affluent area.  Here we have got to see that even the humblest home which we have to serve, gets that excellence which is due to that home.  Thank you indeed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Rehman who will speak for 15 minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Chair.  Mr Chairman, at the outset allow me to congratulate our hon Minister of Education, Dr Vincent Zulu, on his budget.

If every one of us present in this House here today are honest with ourselves, and politics aside, we will agree that compiling this budget must have been a living nightmare for our hon Minister.  The National Government has cut our budget not to the bone but to the marrow.

Out budget for 1997/1998 of R6,125 billion is certainly inadequate, since it reflects an almost 8% cut from last year's budget.  The National Government has certainly not taken into account that we in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal have the highest number of school-going children out of the nine provinces.  Our intake of learners rises at about 8% per annum.  For the sake of clarity I would like to quote the following statistics.

In KwaZulu-Natal we have approximately 5 300 schools, 2,8 million scholars and approximately 82 000 educators.  We need 15 000 classrooms.  Without sufficient funding from the National Government this will not be possible.  Our children in rural areas are still learning under trees.  It is laughable when one considers that Central Government wants to install telephones and lights in every school.  How does one learn under trees with telephones and lights?

I do, however, know that our hon Minister and our hon Premier are sensitive to the needs of our learners in the rural areas.  Maximum utilisation of the education budget has to be made, considering that almost 93% is absorbed by way of salaries for educators.  Much could be said about the roll over of R6 million that was allocated for scholars' transport.  My Committee was faced with the unenviable task of deciding how this paltry amount could be evenly distributed when transport provision for the entire Province's needs would have run close to R1 billion.

The problem was further compounded by the fact that reliable income thresholds, that should have been established by the Central Education Department, are still being awaited.  The income thresholds I am referring to will indicate which learner will qualify for partial, conditional and whole subsidisation for transport.  Learners are at present electing to attend schools in the urban and suburban schools because of better facilities.

A structured system of school bussing needs to be fully explored and investigated.  Research without the requisite financial support will prove futile.  Research can effectively be translated into action with the availability of adequate funding.  This appears to be a major source of frustration at this stage.  Could this be a political ploy on the part of the National Government, considering that education provision is a sensitive and delicate issue?

Press statements are deliberately poised at discrediting our hon Minister and failing our Provincial Government under the astute leadership of Dr Ben Ngubane.  The fact of the matter is that with the present system of Government in this country, little or very little power lies in the hands of the Provincial Governments.  Alluding to the demands of our leader and hon Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi, for a federal Government would have eased the situation.

There needs to be devolution of power if provinces were to provide effective delivery of services.  Unfortunately, our Provincial Government of KwaZulu-Natal appears to be dragged along by the National Government.  The recent siege of the regional offices in Ladysmith is yet a demonstration that should be waged at the doorstep of the offices of the National Government.  The quotas for the employment of educators is being decided by the National Education Ministry.

We have 18 colleges of education in KwaZulu-Natal.  Let us assume a hundred educators qualify each year, from each of these colleges.  We then have 1 800 teachers awaiting teaching posts.  This year in keeping with the budget and the process of right-sizing, only about 200 additional educators will be employed by the KwaZulu Department of Education and Culture.  Teacher organisations who were party to the decisions taken by the National Ministry, in terms of the pupil/teacher ratio of one to 35 and one to 40, for the secondary and primary schools respectively, now suddenly find these ratios unacceptable in anticipation of the launch of Curriculum 2005 an outcome based education.

The education spin-offs of OBE seem highly impressive when explained theoretically.  Has the National Minister considered the financial implications for its just implementation?  It is very well to state that much of the funding will come from international donors, but what happens to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal?  Will we be expected to implement the new curriculum effectively with the limited resources from National Government?

I am very sceptical about the new curriculum.  I feel that the National Government and more especially the National Minister of Education, Professor Sibusiso Bengu, wants to gain some sort of credibility for himself, and his ANC Government, before the 1999 elections.  At the same time make those provinces not being governed by the ruling party as ineffective.  We should therefore resist the implementation of OBE in our Province of KwaZulu-Natal until the nuts and bolts of the programme have been thoroughly put in place.

Nowhere in the world has OBE proved successful.  Highly sophisticated first world countries are still grappling with issues pertaining to OBE.  I suggest that any other province governed by the ruling party should pilot and conduct action research into OBE.  Prove to us that OBE can be implemented in a cost effective way and we shall then opt for its implementation in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Let us not commit ourselves to new trends and innovations when we anticipate being ditched in midstream.

My strong objection to Curriculum 2005, besides the points already mentioned are as follows.  Curriculum 2005 is far more demanding on the skills of teachers, many of whom are still under-qualified and battling to come to terms with high classes and inadequate resources.  If this model is to succeed, teacher training institutions must be revolutionised to ensure that they are equipping teacher trainees with the skills and attitudes that will enable them to effectively meet the challenges of Curriculum 2005.

The new books and manuals that are being written by curriculum specialists will only be effective when they are understood by teachers and teacher training institutions.  Present realities are that to train teachers to implement what is to be a sophisticated and heavily technology based system will cost millions.  Poor provinces that are struggling now to pay for textbooks will suffer even greater hardships.  Many under-qualified teachers in rural areas and even in peri-urban areas are not equipped to benefit from such training.  The education system enrols more learners from year to year and retains them in the system longer with fewer funds in real terms.  This means less per learner to go around.

The promulgation of the South African Schools Act, No 84 of 1996, will imply that school governing bodies will assume greater responsibilities for the governance of schools.  What chance is there that schools will be governed effectively by the school governing bodies?  Formerly all white schools are far ahead of black schools when it comes to governance because they already have several years experience of parent dominated governing bodies, have better educated parents and teachers to drive those bodies and have far better facilities than black schools.

85% of black schools are rural, and many pupils' parents are illiterate, though governing bodies are charged by the Schools Act with ensuring quality education and fund raising.  The KwaZulu Provincial Government can no longer afford to pay for cleaning services at schools.  Schools that enjoyed these services on State funding will now have to raise the monies themselves to pay for such services.  The honeymoon is over and the reality has dawned.

Security at schools is another source of great concern.  Recent incidents of violence at our schools has in certain instances transformed our schools from educational institutions to battlefields.  The absence of fencing and burglar proofing resulted in school buildings being vandalised.  The Department of Education and Culture can no longer fund security at schools as was the case previously.  With severe financial cutbacks this essential provision will have to be severely curtailed.

Learners tend to display negative attitudes towards schooling.  Learners are alleged to be sitting in cinemas or frequenting undesirable places when they should be attending school.  There needs to be greater involvement on the part of parents to ensure that financial resources that are being invested in the education is reaping the desired outcomes.

The implementation of a code of conduct for learners is being presently formulated by my Committee.  The code of conduct for educators and the impending formation of the South African Council of Educators, is yet another positive indication of the delivery of a relevant coherent and balanced education system for our children.

Professor Bengu's plan to import Cuban teachers to work in rural schools, teaching mathematics, science and agriculture.  They can then be discarded and replaced with a new batch rotated to wherever there is need for them, obviating the need for expensive retrenchment packages.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Many thousands of top teachers will be lost to other professions through the redundancy packages that the Central Education Department has offered.  The loss of expertise and experience in the kind of areas that South African education is most vulnerable, is incalculable.  An entire echelon of capable administrators at the level of principals and department heads will disappear overnight.  In KwaZulu-Natal about 3 200 teachers mainly from the old HOD, HOR and DET schools have accepted the package.  The saddest point is that only about 200 teachers will be employed to fill the gap.

I must compliment our hon Minister Dr V T Zulu and his Department for taking a badly needed step towards improving the culture of learning at schools in KwaZulu-Natal which has severe backlogs and more pupils than any other province.  The challenges are particularly severe.

The Government's new outcome based education system has no hope of success unless teachers are professionally equipped and personally motivated to teach well.  Equally children must be sufficiently stimulated to want to learn.

Madam Chair, finally, I would like to appeal to my hon colleagues in this Legislature.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

AN HON MEMBER:  Madam Chair?

MR M F REHMAN:  I am sorry, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have not had a sex change.  [LAUGHTER]

MR M F REHMAN:  Sorry, Mr Chairman.  Finally, I would like to appeal to my hon colleagues in this Legislature to put our political differences aside and work together for the upliftment of our dear school-going children, especially those who have been disadvantaged in the past.

In conclusion, I would like to thank all the officials of the Department headed by Dr Shabalala and especially in my region, Newcastle and Ladysmith, to Mr Ben Martin for his assistance at all times.  We from the side of the IFP fully support our hon Minister and his budget.  Remember the old saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish and you feed him for life".  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon Mrs Galea who will speak for four minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  Firstly, may I congratulate the hon Minister Dr Vincent Zulu, on his budget speech, the Department, the Education and Culture Chairperson, the hon member Mr Burrows, the Portfolio Committee who have strived to bring the three Rs to all our young citizens of KwaZulu-Natal.  My interpretation of the three Rs are reading, writing and responsibility.

Hon Minister, can we not get the message across to those individuals who damage schools, places of learning and the equipment?  What they are doing to you and your Department and the communities at large.  They are doing a gross disservice to them, as to replace and repair these facilities, they destroy the means of someone else, deemed less deserving, to have to go without them.

Of concern is the communication and contact between the departments.  For example, one of the questions put to the Minister re Gamalakhe College, which is my old favourite, was whether the Department would consider building more classrooms so as to increase the student intake?  The answer given, I quote, was:

	Possible expansion is not being considered.  The status of the contract with LTA will end on 9 March 1997.

But when reading the Department of Works' reports for 1996, for which I thank the Reverend Mtetwa, the hon Minister of Works, for distributing timeously and not on the day of the debate.  On page 19 we have a photo of the Gamalakhe School, as well being told, that a future phase is anticipated to increase the student population to 1 000 for which adequate services have been provided.

This is wonderful news as this year the number of applicants was 4 785 of which only 200 students were admitted.  Could the Minister verify this, that is that there will be a future phase?

The right-sizing and the voluntary severance packages.  Due to the teachers taking severance packages the Education Department is losing many teachers with years of experience.  The excess educators were to be redeployed in areas of need.  However, the Department is now abolishing those posts instead of transferring them into areas of need.  With the departure of seven principals on the South Coast the community will lose 258 years of teaching and administrative experience.  35 educators from the Port Shepstone area will be accepting severance packages.  

There have been problems of non-delivery of stationery, no sign of repairs or building of classrooms.  This we see on page 15 of the Annual Report.  I will not go through it all as the Chairperson has gone through it, but 4 151 need paint and then there are 1 241 structures need attention or it is not suitable for education.

There is lots of fear, uncertainty and anger amongst teachers.  What is happening about the July increments?  Will they be given?  Will they have community radio schools and community colleges?  These are a few of the questions being asked recently.

The Finance Portfolio Committee report on the budget 1997/98 is excellent and these concerns need to be followed up and I am sure that the Chairperson, the hon Mr Burrows, has taken note of these.

I am pleased to see that the colleges of education are poised to lead in a new curriculum development because of concern to me is that our colleges are full of young people learning.  But are they actually doing the subjects that we need and then as a result that when they graduate they will have employment?

Another concern is the cut in the Provincial library services, which will reduce the impact of literacy and development programmes, especially in our rural areas.  Perhaps we should do something similar to what Exclusive Books did or encourage them to do it again, is to ask people to bring three old books and then they can buy a new one at a special price.  Perhaps that way we will get more books out into the rural areas.

The priority needs of the citizens must be dealt with in conjunction with the constraints of the Education Department, which they face in reprioritising towards these needs.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Half a minute.

MRS C E GALEA:  In closing, Mr Chairperson, I support the budget.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon members Mrs Ford who will speak for ten minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Please forgive me for not calling you a chairperson, I consider the word "chairman" is the position you are holding irrespective of your sex.  A pity Mr Rehman is not here.  He would not have had that sexist problem.

First of all, I would like to congratulate our Minister on presenting a budget that I am sure was not an easy task.  Being the Minister of Education in this Province I am sure is not an easy task.

When 95% of the budget which I heard with horror, I was still under the impression it was only 93%, is being spent on personnel costs.  It just boggles the mind.  The National Minister, Mr Bengu, was quoted in the Mail and Guardian of the 9th saying that the Government is reviewing this policy of packages because of the unexpected cost of the packages.  Well, surely before you make those sort of decisions that now we are going to offer everybody a package, anyone who wants one, you go into the finances of it.  You do not just "sommer" say, "Oh you want to go, there is a nice little package.  On your way".  It just is a little bit frightening.

The importing of teachers.  Let me give you an experience that I have had of teachers who are Indian nationals (not South African Indians) who cannot speak English properly themselves, who are actually teaching Zulu children in rural areas English, maths and science.  They might be very, very good teachers but when they speak to me as an English-speaker and I have to say, "I beg your pardon, what was that you said.  I beg your pardon", because I cannot understand what they are saying, what is going to happen to our learners?

For our sins we have 11 official languages in this country.  Well, I can foresee that we are going to have to have 13 because one extra will be Zulu with a Spanish accent and the other one will be English with a Spanish accent.  So we will end up with 13 official languages otherwise nobody will be able to understand what is being said.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

AN HON MEMBER:  They are on their way.

MRS O E FORD:  Cuban teachers.  I hope not.  I hope not.

MR R M BURROWS:  But you love tequila.

MRS O E FORD:  Not really, no.  Outcomes based education.  It has failed three times from what I have heard in America and recently in Australia.  So now South Africa here we come, let us try something that has failed in other countries.  Why not?  I mean good grief.

The cut in the education budget, R500 million.  That means that KwaZulu-Natal once again is going backwards.  Once again we are Cinderella but now we are even Cinderella's Cinderella because we are not even given a broom to sweep the ashes.  Now they have taken the broom away.

Instead of criticising the Department, I would appeal to all members of this House, not only those on the Education Portfolio Committee, to try the other way.  Try and be supportive.  Try and support our administration.  Try and support our Minister.  Maybe that way we will motivate people to do something instead of trying to dodge the bullets, metaphorically speaking.

Adult Basic Education.  I read in the Minister's budget report about the Adult Basic Education, and I am very pleased to say here and now, it might be a plug for somebody, but the Western Deep Levels Mine in Carltonville has an Adult Basic Education Section, a training section where they teach, they train adult miners, illiterate miners to do English and maths to Std 5 in three sections of six months.  So in 18 months those adults can converse, read and write in English and they can do maths.  The basic sort of maths that if the boss says, "You are getting a 5% or a 7% increase in your salary", that man can look at his pay packet and say, "Yes, I have got 7%", and not be had.

These people have started.  Their first project was at Ingwavuma and their first trained teachers have now come back from Carltonville after training, beginning of April, and they have started with their Adult Education classes in the Ingwavuma area.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MRS O E FORD:  You have.  Nice people, are they not?  Out of school activities.  Sport.  Now I am sure my colleague the hon Mr Bhamjee will agree that sport is a great unifier.  Golf is one sport that is a great leveller but the other sports are great unifiers.  In Wembezi, by having 17 soccer teams we have defused the situation.  17 soccer teams is an awful lot of soccer teams but those boys, those men, those young men are no longer standing on street corners thinking up some sort of mischief who or what they can do that is wrong.  They spend their time training and mixing, which is the fantastic part about it.

So as far as I am concerned, any way that we can promote all sports in our Province; please if you as an individual can help in any sort of way please do so.

Careers Guidance Workshops.  The hon Mr Burrows, I would like publicly to thank him for supporting me in my endeavours in my area in careers guidance workshops.  He has very, very kindly come along and opened the sessions for me, where I have had speakers from the University of Durban-Westville, Technikon Durban, Technikon Mangosuthu, Technikon M L Sultan and the Department of Labour to talk to matric pupils.  Not just a stand where they can go on a paper chase and collect papers here and collect papers there and take them all home and not know what on earth to do with them, but to sit down, listen to what the presenters have to say about their institutions.  Then after that go to the stand so that they know what that piece of paper is, they know what questions to ask.  They know how to apply for a bursary otherwise they will get that piece of paper in January next year and there will be much jubilation in the family, much jubilation because I have passed matric and I do not know what the hell to do with it.

I have also at those careers workshops, in closing them, have asked those learners to realise that tertiary education is not a right, it is a privilege.  I have appealed to them, for me not to see their faces on my television screen in a year or two's time trashing universities, trashing technikons or trashing any darn thing.  They must realise that it is costing every one of us sitting in this room, an awful lot of money, for each one of those students to be at a tertiary institution.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you very much.  In closing, Mr Chairman, I repeat, give support instead of criticism.  The learners of today are the leaders of tomorrow.  I would like to think that the future of our beautiful Province will be in educated hands.  As an old regime adage, "Ek stem saam" with the Minister, where he says in the Department of Education and Culture we believe that our children are our future leaders.  They need to be nurtured and taken care of until they have established roots enabling them to spread their wings and fly to greater heights without supervision.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Mchunu who will speak for ten minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Mr Chairman, I would like to express sympathy to the Minister in the sense that he has had to operate within the budgetary constraints as has been explained by other hon members in the House.  But I would immediately want to say, that instead of us sitting here and saying we have so much of a shortfall in our budget, I think we must look for innovative ways to try and raise money elsewhere.  I am sure it will ease our minds and enable us to apply our minds to the real problems that are facing us.

Some of those problems of course were elaborated on by Mr Meer, how we have come to face such problems as we are facing at the moment.  We have a job to do and we have to do the job.  If we fail to do the job we will be judged badly and harshly by history.

I just want to say in response to my colleague Mr Rehman, that I do not think we should talk about federalism in this budget vote because I do not think it has anything to do with the problems that we are facing at the moment.  I think what we should do is to use the time that we have to deal with the real problems that are facing us.

One issue which may not necessarily be relevant now, but is relevant, particularly in our next budget, which amounts to a request, which I would plead with the Minister to consider in his next financial year.  I do suspect that there will also be constraints, is the community college, building of a community college in the area north of the Umfolozi River.  I come from there but it has nothing to do with the fact that I come from there.

It has much to do with the reality that is facing those communities.  We have spoken a lot about the SDIs and the potential development that is there.  Roads, tourism, agriculture and all that, but we will then stop short of saying one very important issue that we have to deal with is this question of a college.  Truly speaking, in the north whether you are in the Midlands or you are at the Coast is the same.  You have one college at Ladysmith, another one at Newcastle and another one at Nongoma.  I am not talking necessarily about a teachers college, I am talking about a community college that will play a useful role in terms of the developments that we are talking about in the north.

The next issue that I want to talk about is the developments that are taking place at National level.  I want to say that I do see light at the end of the tunnel, although there are problems.  Especially when one looks at policy development as far as higher education is concerned, funding at all levels and curriculum development.  I also acknowledge that there are problems that we will have to deal with.

One of those problems which might stand in our way in realising the objectives and the intentions that we have, particularly at National level, is the scepticism that we have with the intentions of the National Ministry, particularly when it has to do with curriculum development.  That is Curriculum 2005.  One such scepticism has been expressed by Mr Rehman.

I want to stress that I believe if we do not start now we will never get started.  I believe very strongly that we must start.  We must not say 2005 is too close, we are rushing, we should be steady because all our children if they hear us here sitting in this Parliament that we are doubting, that we are sitting here the whole day just doubting and doubting, I do not think we will be doing fairness to the future of those children.  We are talking about matrics who do not know what to do.  We are talking about unemployment, we are talking about all those things, unemployable post-matriculants.

Is it not that we should start resolving those problems now rather than later?  I believe that we really have to make a start and begin to be positive, because scepticism on its own is a problem because you do not apply your mind comprehensively and seriously on something that you have doubts about.  We have to learn to transform ourselves.  We have to learn to adapt to change otherwise we can never bring about change.

The other problem, apart from scepticism, that could seriously affect the future of our education is at administration level.  By the way, I would like in his response, the Minister to advise us on the progress that has been made with regard to the appointment of a permanent superintendent of the Province.  Where I am actually going is the question of administration.

Leave the problems and everything aside, budgetary constraints and so on and so on.  You know, there are schools which are better run than others.  The fewer schools which are better run, most of our schools particularly African schools, administration is actually grounded.  It leaves much to be desired.  I think much of it has to do with the fact that if there is a need for a school you appoint a teacher.  You do not have any teachers college or whatever for managers, or for principals.  I think this is one area that we have to look at because even if the school is badly funded it must be clean.  You must not allow a situation where school buildings sink in bushes and so on and so on.

Simple things like creating a positive attitude in our managers and equipping them with basic skills in running schools which I believe is demanded at this time, is something that we need to focus on.  Of course I acknowledge that we have budgetary constraints, but I do not think that we should leave matters as they are at the moment.

The other area which we need to focus on is the non-existence of the culture of teaching and learning, because I do not believe we have ever had one.  It is just non-existent and we must start one.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR E S MCHUNU:  We must start one as soon as possible and there are two areas that we have to focus on.  I actually appreciate the effort made by the Minister in February this year, organising a workshop on this particular issue because that showed that there is seriousness on the part of the Ministry and the Department, to address this particular issue.  We need to do more in terms of the resolutions that were taken at that workshop.

Teachers, we must focus on them.  Pupils, we must focus on them and my colleagues have said something about this and including parents.  Where there is a growing problem actually is on the question of teachers.  I experienced this problem as more and more new teachers joined us while we were in the teaching profession.

Those new teachers were a little bit worse than ourselves in terms of determination and preparedness to do the job, to be in class and do the work.  I do not know where this culture is developing from, whether they get it at colleges.  Where they get it from I actually do not know, but it is there.  People like sunning themselves.  People like skipping teaching periods.  People like sitting in the staff room and then just talking.  I think in this area we have to do quite a lot.  I think district managers should be made to report very seriously on this matter on an ongoing basis.

Well, the other issues that I want to run through quickly, I know I have one and a half minutes left.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have half a minute.

MR E S MCHUNU:  The question of the implementation of the new Education Act, is something that we need to rush through.  I do not agree, once more, with Mr Rehman saying whatever he was saying about this.  This was scepticism once more which I hate because it means that we are not agents of change.  We want to maintain the status quo that has been proved to be doomed to failure.  I think he should change his attitude completely.  That is my colleague there.

Now we have to move on and implement this thing and make sure that before the end of the year we have done a lot with regard to the setting up of Government schools.  I appreciate the progress that the Minister referred to, that the Premier has to sign and then we will move.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Lastly, thank you very much, Chairperson.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Burrows who will address us for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  I will use this opportunity to speak as a Democratic Party representative on the Portfolio Committee.  I would like to compliment the last speaker on an excellent speech and making use of every last second.  That is how a good teacher does perform.  Well done.

I would like to just address one or two of the key issues that were raised by the hon the Minister in the report on the Department.

First of all, on the overall allocation of funds.  You know, one of my key problems is that when we had 16 Education Departments, it was possible to trace who was on the top of the priority funding ladder and who was at the bottom.  You always found that the white department in Transvaal, the Transvaal Education Department, they always got the most money and then it trickled down until the black departments in one of the homeland Governments would get the bottom.

Now we have got nine provinces and you can do exactly the same.  The distinction between the per capita expenditure in public ordinary schools between the top province at R3 695,00 per child per year and the bottom province R1 176,00 per year, is three times one to the other, and here we are in a country that is now supposedly equal.  I find it utterly indefensible.  This Province finds itself No 6 of nine provinces in the per capita expenditure.

KZN are spending, and these are 1995/96 figures, the latest I have, R1 976,00 per pupil per year.  Really what we have got to do, and it does not matter which political party we are from, we have actually got to put pressure on the National level authorities to ensure that there is per capita funding received by the provinces, so that the Western Cape budgetary allocation for education will have to go down.  I have said this to my colleagues in my own party from the Western Cape, and we have had enormous arguments with the people from Gauteng who say, "But we have got the infrastructure.  You have not got the infrastructure".  I said we have got to go and build the damn schools.

So understand, I want the National Party to stand up and say to their colleagues who run Western Cape the money must come here.  I want the ANC to say to their colleagues in Gauteng the money must come here, because unless we get that we are not going to get the money to do the things we want to do.  So we agree, fine.

The second thing is we have to get the message through.  Clem Sunter used the phrase in one of his recent books, "Pretoria will provide and other myths".  Well, I want to say we have a myth in this Province, Ulundi will provide and we must actually stop it.  Ulundi will not provide.  The money is not there.  We must actually distinguish quite clearly our funding priorities.

Yes, there has to be a basic common amount of money for the provision of teaching staff, but then we have to look at the backlogs.  We have to examine the schools that do not have toilet systems.  I mean for heaven sake how much better it would be in one year's time if we could all stand up and say, "Hooray, every single school in this Province has a toilet".  At the moment 551 have not.  To do that we have actually got to fund those and we have got to provide.  Those are the backlogs that we have got to relieve, before we go on to talk about luxuries.

We have got to quantify the equipment shortages.  We have got to say there are schools without laboratories, there are schools without libraries.  Let us list them.  Let us make sure that those get supplied.  Let us make sure that people who do not have books and stationery get them.  Let us provide the funds to the disadvantaged schools, because there is a small line in the Minister's speech that has profound importance.  It is a line that has to do with the fact that schools are going to be quantified in terms of the amount of money they will receive for domestic services, for telephones and for postage.  Let us just take those.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  I want to tell you we are going to have schools that are going to say, "We have not got enough money to pay our telephone bills".  The answer quite frankly has got to be, "Tough, we are spending the money in installing phones at schools that have not even got telephones and you are going to have to start charging school fees".  Which leads me onto another area.

We have disparities in school fee collection in this Province.  We have had schools which are now currently, and these are Government schools, State public schools as they are called now, collecting R3 000 to R4 000,00 a year per child being educated, and there are other schools in poor areas charging nothing.  That is good and well but there are schools in advantaged areas charging R50,00 a year and R25,00 a year and they are complaining because they have not got enough money.  Quite frankly the time has got to come, where it does not matter what your colour is or what your history was, if you have the ability to pay the school has got to collect school fees, otherwise you will not have enough money to do the kinds of things you want to do.

We have got to do the kinds of areas that the hon Mr Mchunu spelt out for staff.  We have got to spell out the hours of work.  There are members of teaching staff who put in the minimal amount of time.  Some of them are at movies at 11 o'clock in the morning.  There are others who go to school at half past seven and go home at half past two.  They do exactly what is required of them.

Then we have got thousands and thousands of teachers in all schools who go and give extracurricular time, they work on Saturdays with sport.  My question is, and I come from a teacher organisation background, why should they all get the same pay?  Why should those who work hard and do more, get the same as those who do nothing, or do very little?  So we actually have got to provide incentives to our teachers, the good, the capable, the demanding to in fact get good pay.

Lastly, on the question of promotions.  The Minister is going to have to advertise promotion posts in the next couple of months.  He has got, I know, a 3 June post position list that is going to come up with 1 600 posts filled, but 450 principals left their schools at the end of April.  Those posts must be advertised, they must be interviewed quickly and effectively so we can have those posts filled by the beginning of next year, otherwise we lose another year of promotion posts.

Quite frankly if we have to face the employee organisations in the labour courts on this issue, then we have got to face them, but we have got to have working schools with working promotion posts by the end of this year otherwise we are facing another year of turmoil in our profession.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  I gave you an additional one minute because I thought what you were saying was very important.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  At this point in time I wish to hand over to the hon member Mr Haygarth to relieve me and he is going to take over now.

MR G HAYGARTH TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on hon member Mrs A Mchunu to address the committee for 12 minutes.

MRS A MCHUNU:  Mr Chairman, hon Ministers and hon members.  It is an honour for me to be part of this House.  It is my first time to open my mouth here as this House deals with issues that are very close to people's hearts.

I pay tribute to our former Premier, the hon Dr F T Mdlalose, for the sterling work he did under strenuous circumstances.  I pay tribute also to our present Premier, the hon Dr B S Ngubane, even if he is not here, for the work he has undertaken with humility, working hand in hand with all the hon Ministers.

I would like to congratulate the hon Minister of Education and Culture, for the work he has done under very difficult circumstances.  Unfortunately, the hon Minister's Department is a very sensitive one, because that is the Department that deals with growth and development of the nation and everybody wants to have a word about that Department.  After all, we learnt from the previous ~apartheid~ Government that in order to destroy people, concentrate on the children and give them disenabling education.

I am just wondering because one of the members has stated that there are problems in schools.  There are teachers who are not teaching and children who are not learning.  But this is a culture that was developed.  It was clearly stated that now it is time for liberation and education later.  We have not gone out to remove that for most of the teachers and the children who were listening to us, when we were going around promoting the culture of not doing anything in schools and some of the members will remember that in 1984 ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MRS A MCHUNU: [But there is my father].

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS A MCHUNU:  In 1984 when this was started, when we said that it should be education later and liberation now, one of the teachers actually came to my house to batter me.  Well, I escaped by God's grace but that has not gone out of the people's minds.  We still have to go back and correct that.  That it is time to teach and it is time to learn.  Let us put aside all else.  This is the time for us to make lemonade out of the lemon that we have, in order to give quality education to our children.

Unfortunately, we have got budgetary constraints.  Despite these cutbacks our Department has actually gone all out to prepare for this 2005 Curriculum, which is going to deliver the outcomes based education.  In fact when I first saw this OBE I thought it was the Order of the British Empire. 

Well, let us make something out of it.  It is difficult, as Mr Rehman has stated.  If we have had a cutback of the budget, we do not have equipment in most of the schools as the hon Mr Burrows has mentioned.  The teachers are being right-sized.  The teachers are taking packages.  Who is going to deal with the children because this programme needs or calls for a few pupils to a teacher?  It is not the teacher who is now going to deliver goods to the children, the teacher will guide and support the children whilst they are looking around for information and actually doing their own research.

There is confusion somewhere at National level, the Department of Education.  One thing is said but no money is provided for that.  There is cutback of the money and yet we are expected to implement a new programme altogether.  Teachers are walking out because it was said they should take packages because we would get in new teachers.  The time for putting in new teachers into the schools was also wrongly arranged.  How can you put in new teachers in the middle of the year?  This should have been made in such a way that teachers who were to take packages leave at the end of the year, at the end of December, and then the new ones be employed at the beginning of the year.

Now there is such confusion.  The teachers, fair enough, are willing to start this programme.  They are actually going to workshops to do this, but the question is who is remaining with the children right now in the classes?  It is quite confusing but as we all say, we must do something about it because it is to the benefit of our own children.

Looking at what we have in the line of OBE.  Children are going to deal with eight aspects and that is:

1.	Human social sciences
2.	Language, literacy and communication
3.	Technology
4.	Mathematical literacy, mathematics and mathematical sciences.
5.	Natural sciences
6.	Economics and management science
7.	Life orientation
8.	Arts and culture.

This is good for our children but then how do we organise it?  Where do we get the money?  Perhaps, if we could have said let us start this as a pilot project in one region in 1998, it would work out better.  We put the little bit of resources we have, we start there and then if it works out well we say then in 1999 we are going to start in another region but if we are going to start en masse in 1998 with all the schools with the cuts that we have had, I think it is going to be a bit of a problem.

Nevertheless, we congratulate you, the hon Mr Minister Mtwana and the Department for the hard work that you have done.  Well, it is a pity that at times we kick the referee instead of kicking the ball.  We concentrate on looking at you as to who you are, instead of looking at the work we are supposed to do for the good of our children.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member Mrs Mchunu.  I now call on hon member Mr A Rajbansi to address the Committee for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I know that I do not have to put on my referee's outfit.  [LAUGHTER]  Mr Chairman, I want to wish the hon Minister well.  In spite of the fact that sometimes I did get upset with him.  It is a difficult job especially when you have to have the usual complainant after a liberation election that this last bastion of the British Empire, this last outpost is still being short-changed and regarded as a Cinderella Province.

I am glad that when the hon Mr Roger Burrows was speaking, the chief spokesman on finance of the ANC concurred that Gauteng should surrender money.  We did not get the similar concurrence from the National Party as far as the Western Cape is concerned.  I want to support the plea made to the hon Minister by the now new chief spokesman of education of the ANC for community colleges north of the Umfolozi.

I am not saying this because we are about to establish a branch of the Minority Front there.  [LAUGHTER]  But that call is made on merit.

AN HON MEMBER:  In ~Ulundi~.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Now the hon Mr I C Meer very eloquently gave the reasons why the Government may not be able to provide the service to the extent to which services are required in our country, making special reference again to that R39 billion of loans of the previous Government, which the present Government has to pay.

Of course let us look at the reverse of the statement made by the Deputy Minister of Finance at a workshop in Durban, that if we catch all the tax evaders and especially if we close the net of the customs dodgers, this country is being bled for R21 billion in customs evasion alone.  So let us put the effort of getting the R21 billion so that can be used for development.

Now a lot has been said about discipline.  I want to make one appeal.  We know that there was lack of discipline in a particular sector in our education fraternity.  I meet three teachers regularly.  I see them at Rossburgh testing grounds at 9 o'clock in the morning, I see them in the streets at 12 o'clock and I ask them questions, "Who checks whether you are at school?  Does the principal care".  He says, "Well, the principal is never at school and nobody checks him".  

Until such time we do not have discipline in our education, and until such time the organised profession realises that if they want to have meetings of teacher unions, of teachers bodies, do not do it in teaching time to the detriment of the child, because everybody says that our prime interest and the main purpose is the interest of the child.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I say let us write a composition to say how are we seeing liberation, how we are seeing changes through the eyes of a black African child who never knew a good school but saw a good school in another area.  Saw them in Phoenix, saw them in Montclair etcetera.  Who saw children being transported, who saw children being given free textbooks and now they still have to travel to other areas.  Examine the life of a child who for example has to travel from Mariannhill to Chatsworth every day where there is no direct bus service.

We are failing our children if we do not use our money wisely, and I think every effort must be made to ensure that liberation has gone, let us have discipline in our education because the countries that invested in discipline, invested in education are the great economic giants.  Look at Korea, look at Mauritius.  There is no unemployment in Mauritius and the growth rate is high.

Let us forget the past.  Let us catch the tax dodgers and let us build a growth rate of 8% to 10%.  We will have everything so that we can give everybody the real fruits of liberation.  Thank you, Minister.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Now we can have our community college.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon member Mr B H Cele to address the Committee for ten minutes.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  We are here today moving from the unity of opposite.  Unity of opposite is when the circumstances put you together and your very opposition forces you to live in opposition for one purpose.

Here with Minister Dr Zulu, we have travelled and we have agreed that political caps, when it comes to the issues of delivery, will have to be taken off and you make sure that at the end of the day the children of the Province are benefitting in our existence and election to Parliament.

The problem is that when you begin to trouble the trouble until the trouble troubles you, and when you begin to believe that you cannot make a mistake without blaming anybody, that becomes a problem.  It is unfortunate that Mr Rehman is not here.  My daughter Khumbuza will always blame me for whatever is happening when the mother asks what is it.  "My dad did it".  I have just begun to teach her that no, some of the things can be corrected by you, within the space of living that we have in this home.

Unfortunately, Mr Rehman is not here, because he still cries that the big brother did it.  There are things that we definitely can do without beginning to complain and wasting much time in complaining, rather than spending more time in doing things correctly.

Mrs Mchunu cries of the liberation first and then education.  I do not know how old she is, I do not wish to know.  [LAUGHTER]  But I know that I am of the same age with Bantu Education and nobody blames that period.  Nobody blames where the Cabinet, the Government sits down and decides that we want to make them to render these African people useless.  Nobody mourns about that period.  Nobody mourns about the period of Bantu Education that wanted to teach us until Std 2 so that we can count up to 12 to make sure that we can count the dozen eggs on the farms.  Nobody mourns about that.  They only mourn about the people that stood up and fought that kind of system.  They only mourn about the kids that said enough is enough.  We could not sit here any more and take all this, we cannot be gullible to the poison that was decided deliberately in Parliament by the Minister of Education, that let us introduce something called Bantu Education.  Please mourn about that.

Yes, the Curriculum 2005 definitely will have to be implemented.  All of us will have to be part of that.  We will have to try and correct what has happened and say where we are.  Let us see what best we can do out of what we have.  We would definitely love to have more money and, Mr Burrows, I do not know what is happening today, everybody that speaks, oh Mr Burrows is still there, everybody that speaks leaves the House and you do not hear people talking thereafter.

MR R M BURROWS:  No, I am here.

MR B H CELE:  You are here.  I fully agree with Mr Burrows to say that all of us will have to look at this thing for the giving of money per capita and all that.  That is for sure, but it does not mean that we can then begin to utilise and find better ways of utilising what we have while we are fighting that one at the present moment.

I fully agree that when we come together as a Province we will benefit out of that.  Again, I would love to warn Mr Rehman who is not here that one of the greatest sons of Africa, Amilear Cabral who led the struggle of Guinea Bissau says, "Tell no lies and claim no easy victories".

The worst lie you can tell a person is lies that you tell yourself.  You can lie to other persons, but when you begin to lie to yourself, there is something very serious about that.  We should not lie to ourselves to say that everything will come like manna.  I do not know when it was, but I am told that it did happen some time back, and they promised us that it will never come again.  So it is all of us together that we need to come together and make sure that we work together.

For the schools themselves much will have to be done.  Definitely when you go down it is unfortunate that the resources are still concentrated in the big cities up to this point, are still concentrated on people that used to have things at the expense of the have nots, even today.  It has not changed much.  So that will have to be done and we will have to be very much unsympathetic to those people that cry for the maintenance of the status quo.  We will have to be unsympathetic and make sure that everybody begins to benefit out of the existing era.  It is no use to say that there is no money, yet at the school where your kids are, schooling has everything.  There are not even chalk boards in the other schools but you will cry foul when people begin to distribute these monies and all that kind of thing.

So we will have to be biased.  The Department, the Ministry will have to somewhere, somehow, find to be biased towards those people.  I heard Mr Burrows saying that we will have to stop to look wherever you were disadvantaged, where you come from, not exactly, we are not going to begin to do that now.  We will begin to do that at least when they have the chalk boards, when they have the toilets, when they have chalk at schools.  We run at schools where there is no chalk and the schools where there are computers, every child has a computer, where there are overhead projectors and all those things.  We cannot then begin to say that yesterday the history does not count.  It still counts and much so.  Then we will have to redress that.

Well, I just want to be short today.  The security question keeps coming back.  I want to believe that the Minister of Education will begin to put this thing where it belongs.  I think we have spoken about it.  That it cannot be exactly the duty of the Department of Education to deal with the security and all that.  Safety and Security will have to take that matter up, and see that there is security for our schools jointly with the education.  Yes, they can work but we cannot take the money for education and put it in security.  The money for security, where does it go then because it is provided.  Whether it is National, whether it is Provincial but the money for security must be there to make sure.  If you talk about security of the Province you also talk about the security of the kids and teachers at schools.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR B H CELE:  The culture of learning will have to come back.  Starting from where it went astray when somebody deliberately came with Bantu Education.  Definitely Senzo spoke about the teachers.  Senzo is the group that came after us.  He says we were good at school.  We were teaching definitely.  Maybe it is because there were no buses, there were no stokvel around the school where we get more time to go [to have a little bit to drink and then come back to school].

Somebody will have to be very strict with that.  You cannot mix those two.  Drinking and teaching is like drinking and driving, but it is worse with drinking and teaching because the car that you capsize you capsize the car that carries millions.  It is under the car that you drive yourself where you capsize yourself maybe with your family.  If you capsize the teaching car you capsize the car that is carrying millions.  So we cannot be sympathetic, we cannot be easy with those people.

I do not know about those kids we find at cinemas.  Maybe we will have to do more than what we have done up to the present moment, to make sure that those kids are not at the cinemas.  I will definitely support the budget and will hope that the budget as we go on will begin to be biased especially towards those who are historically disadvantaged.  We thank the Minister and Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you the hon member.  I now call on the hon member Mrs T E Millin to address the Committee for ten minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I know I promised in my last speech that one should try not to be political but I am afraid I cannot resist!  I am going to be a bit political.  So I am not going to practise what I preached earlier!

The slight increase in the education budget of KwaZulu-Natal represents a victory, however small, for this extremely important vote.  However, there is no time to sit back and celebrate as the monumental challenges in the short, medium and long term pose every kind of problem imaginable.

The first challenge, probably, is the shortage of appropriately skilled teachers, almost entirely due to the mass exodus of teachers lured away by VSPs, with pay-offs, including pensions running into telephone number figures.  According to Andrew Layman, Chairman of the KwaZulu-Natal's Education Redeployment, it was reported recently that, in the case of KwaZulu-Natal a total of 3 000 plus personnel comprising 514 principals, 223 deputy principals, 925 HODs and 1 465 senior teachers had opted for the VSPs at a cost of R50 million, excluding pensions.

We are now witnessing the absurd, not to mention prohibitively expensive, re-employment of 230 plus senior teachers, including 60 principals who had already been awarded large retrenchment packages, a move described by some politicians and unionists this past week as a "stop-gap measure", following the utterly disastrous affects of the VSPs.  Altogether the so-called redeployment strategy, ostensibly devised to get teachers to relocate to areas and schools where they are needed has proved an almost entirely unmitigated failure...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  a huge, costly experiment, and thinly disguised social engineering that would do credit to such pastmasters of the game as the old Soviet Union, Red China, Hitler's Germany, or the worst follies of ~apartheid's~ architects at the heights of these countries' respective powers.

Yet one is beginning to witness another stage in the social engineering process with a more forceful approach this time to get teachers into posts, requiring a breakup in the family unit, and if teachers do not comply then involuntary retrenchment will ensue.

All in all, a staggering loss of some 15 000 of the most experienced teachers have been lost to the education system nationwide, at the very time when those teachers are most needed to usher in yet another experiment in social engineering, fraught with a high risk of failure, namely Curriculum 2005 or OBE.

With the likes of Blade Nzimande, a key figure in education at National level and whose home base is here in KwaZulu-Natal, (an acknowledged unreconstructed Stalinist, and enthusiastic proponent of all things wise and wonderful emanating from Castro and Cuba), one is forced to conclude, without too much difficulty, that such a strategy could in itself have been deliberately planned.  The scenario being similar to the crisis in Health with too few home-grown doctors.

Solution...  Bring in the Cubans!  I see the headline on the Daily News today, or the other day, another 200 Cuban doctors expected.  Only this time teachers with the concomitant dangers of re-education of our youth in rigid old style Stalinist doctrine, an ever present menace with Nzimande and co, justifying such machinations because of the unco-operative tactics and antics of privileged first world educators in South Africa, unwilling to be coerced away from hearth and home, thus giving him and his Department no other alternative but to import Cubans, or when they run out of Cubans, even Libyans, or heaven forbid, Syrians bartered in exchange for arms and ammunition possibly, or other faithful supporters of the liberation struggle.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  You had better stay, hon member!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

MRS T E MILLIN:  Afterwards.  Afterwards, Mr Chairman.  Bearing in mind that this horrendously stupid and short-sighted strategy was imposed on our Province and others by the National Government and with our Province particularly hard hit.  Our Minister can justifiably claim clean hands with regard to this calamity and its consequences.

There are corroborating reports of some schools where the entire management structure, having taken VSPs, have left junior teachers to cope as best they can.  In some cases with classes cancelled and unsupervised pupils during school breaks, with all the attendant dangers inherent in that situation.  With the onus foisted on parent/teacher organisations to hold the fort until the Department is able to appoint new staff.  This parlous situation is not helped by an alarming increase of violent attacks in and on schools, staff and pupils alike.

This brings one to yet another vexed issue, namely the growing climate of destructive, anti-social behaviour prevalent in society in general, and in schools and other educational institutions in particular, such as our universities for example.  I quote from a letter from one Professor J L Boshoff, published in the University of Natal's "Focus" magazine, Volume No so and so and so and so:

	When universities tumble, education at all levels crumbles.

Yet the looters continue.  Not Aluta continua, looters continue!  [LAUGHTER]  On the very structures so vital for the educating of this and succeeding generations, leading to the perpetuation of the historically disadvantaged.  In fact, according to the Weekly Mail and Guardian editorial current issue, quote.

AN HON MEMBER:  A good newspaper!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Yes - agreed.

	The state of education should be debated as a national emergency because the system in many rural areas is worse today than when it was called Bantu Education.

That was the Weekly Mail and Guardian editor by the way, not me!

But far from coming up with proactive measures to handle the growing anarchy we have a "feel good" constitution.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  The hon Mrs Millin has a copyright of attacking the SACP.  We did not hear that for a very long time.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Well, I have started again.  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

AN HON MEMBER:  You would be pleased to know.  Just listen carefully.

MRS T E MILLIN:  A "feel good" Constitution obsessed with the rights and privileges of every Tom, Dick and Harry at the expense of the rights and privileges of decent ...

AN HON MEMBER:  And sexes.  What about females?

MRS T E MILLIN:  All right.  Law abiding South African citizens.  I want to save time.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.  Mr Wessel Nel is interjecting from a different seat which is against the Rules.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member Mr Nel will you ...

AN HON MEMBER:  He has joined the IFP.

MRS T E MILLIN:  to the extent that the Constitution, namely the chapter on Bill of Rights is nothing short of an enabling provision for every human wrong known to man and woman, and now just to ensure that the baddies will continue unhindered, we have a further Bill providing for the abolition of corporal punishment which, when passed, will criminalise anyone, including the parent in the privacy of their home, from as much as giving their errant offspring so much as a smack on the butt!  Not to mention totally outlawing the administering of corporal punishment in educational institutions!  Ridiculous!

Surely we should be empowering the powers-that-be to deal with destructive elements in order to restore discipline and an orderly environment for learning, and corporal punishment administered fairly, and with due caution, is clearly such a much needed disciplinary mechanism.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Now to OBE again to which I refer briefly due to the time constraints.  It has been referred to by our ANC social engineers as quote, "A part of our revolution", in another Weekly Mail and Guardian article.  "Education moves into 21st Century".

The unseemly rush to throw the baby out with the bath water and hell-bent on reinventing the wheel, by introducing OBE, seemingly ignoring the fact that similar programmes have failed in countries such as the US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, even though introduced in those countries into politically stable and sound economic environments.

In conclusion, Sue Rees, president of the Association of Professional Teachers in the same article proudly boasts:

	The purpose of a curriculum such as OBE is to mould a country's future citizens in accordance with the dreams and aspirations of the Government.

Whether this is intended to inspire confidence in the future of education in South Africa I am not at all sure.  Sounds to my cynical old ears, dangerously close to euphemisms for brainwashing and State sponsored ideological propaganda.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Again this is a programme being imposed on provinces by a Central Government's lust for untrammelled control.

In conclusion, I am finished now you will be glad to hear, may I commend our Minister for his comprehensive report and speech and also congratulations, it is in all three official languages and add my support for the vote on Education that he has given in extremely difficult circumstances.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call on the hon member Mr B V Edwards to address the Committee for 12 minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, hon Mrs Millin for having woken up the House.  Some of them were asleep.

Firstly, my congratulations must go to the hon the Minister on his budget speech and his Department for somehow managing to negotiate the very difficult road of 1996/97.  Ek bedank die agbare Minister vir sy verslag uitgereik in drie tale.  Baie dankie, mnr die Minister.

Many problems were encountered on the road in this past year.  Many have been resolved, but there are a number which cause unhappiness and frustration to many people.  To the parents, to teachers, pupils, the public at large just to name a few.

There is continuing uncertainty in the provision of scholar transport, and this has been addressed by some members, and adequate school security, particularly for the financially disabled and disadvantaged.  The hon Mr Rehman addressed this and I support his views.  There was unacceptable administrative shortcoming for the first matriculation examination, the common exam in our Province.  There were irregularities in the examination process, there were problems in the marking of scripts where some examiners found themselves not properly briefed.  Then finally, many having to wait three to four months to be paid for the hard work done.  So much so they refused to mark supplementary exams.  This was just not acceptable.

Then the excessive delay, of course, in the release of examination results through administrative chaos.  Figures furnished to the Committee of Education Ministers at a meeting at the end of January this year reflected, of the some 141 000 candidates who wrote the exam, 53 267 results or 38% were still awaited on 29 January.  The next highest was the Eastern Cape, 4 803.  It is noted that some 
50 000 of the 53 000 were part-time candidates and we understand that may have caused an additional problem, but the delay is questioned.

To add to that many matriculants were severely disadvantaged by being given totally incorrect results, through failing subjects which they had passed, due to so-called computer errors, but frankly, I believe due to a lack of capacity and of a common sense approach to the problem.  This cost a number of candidates entrance into tertiary institutions and some jobs in a very scarce labour market.

The shortfall of funds in order to meet the backlog in school classrooms, I believe is a problem.  Some progress has been made.  I am not blaming the Minister for this, but there is still an estimated shortfall of some 14 000 classrooms.

Last year our capital budget was cut from R550 million to R22 million and this year we have virtually no funds as well.  So we are going nowhere in the provision of classrooms.  Some do not have access to normal classrooms, they have to manage in the open, in overcrowded classrooms and some just do not attend school.  We have heard about that.

I am advised from reliable sources that the person not attending school, to a large extent through truancy, is now a major problem at our schools, and it is because the teachers do not care any longer, and the school principals do not care.  Many of them attend school on the Monday and arrive back on the Friday.  We really need discipline.  We heard the hon Mr Rajbansi talk about that.  We really do need some discipline because something has gone wrong.  I believe some of them have given up the struggle.

AN HON MEMBER:  Spare the rod and spoil the child.

MR B V EDWARDS:  They have given up the struggle in the whole discipline story.  Last year many students who wrote the matric exams, hardly attended school the whole year, but were allowed to write at the end of the year because nobody bothered to mark them absent or present.  This is a fact, it did happen.  I believe we need a really new look at getting discipline going.  Somehow a blind eye got turned.  Unless something is done to promote the culture of teaching and learning we will fail dismally in our quest.

In spite of the many problems encountered in the Senior Certificate Examination our results in KwaZulu-Natal were better than most and in that the Department must be congratulated.  You did fight some incredible odds.  There is no doubt there is room for improvement and the hon Minister has assured us of his resolve.

I will deal more specifically with the matters arising from the budget before this House.  The total budget for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal represents 19% of the National Exchequer allocation to the nine provinces, of some R75 billion.

Taking into account the population of our Province which is estimated at 25% of the total population of the country, KwaZulu-Natal is underfunded by some R2 billion or 17% of our needs.

Obviously then other provinces and in particular the Eastern Cape, Western Cape, Gauteng are being over-funded in terms of population and equitable needs.  Gauteng interestingly enough has taken a 2,5% cut in its education budget this year, Western Cape 5%, I am just answering some questions that were put, but these two were considered rich in allocation.  They were over-funded in the past.  North-West has increased by 16%, Eastern Cape by 14% and Northern Province 12%.  In real terms KwaZulu-Natal goes backward by some 13%.  That is in real terms when we look at our improvement of conditions of service, last year.

Education with a budget of R6,1 billion, today takes the largest slice of our budget.  We have approximately 2,7 million pupils with teachers in excess of 80 000.  Piecing together the National School Education budget in providing some R30 billion, our Province should receive R7,5 billion as against the budget provision of R6,1 billion.  One accepts this Province slices its own cake as other provinces do, according to their specific needs.  In particular education, health and welfare are the biggest, but overnight major shifts are just not possible.  We already have staff in place.

Our real budget shortfall for education then is in the region of R1,4 billion, even if other votes are short-changed.  Nationally we are still being short-changed.  I appeal to the Premier as our Minister of Finance, to set up a special committee or appoint consultants to fully investigate the funding dilemma, and report to this House and to recommend steps to be taken in making representations at National level to fund us correctly.

Until equity or parity is reached KwaZulu-Natal will continue to struggle to uplift education and particularly our rural education.  We will be forced into drastic measures such as the present voluntary severance packages being offered to the better qualified and most experienced educators.  We have heard the numbers, approximately 500 school principals having retired four/five to ten years early.  What enormous costs in experience to education.

This action is already having severe repercussions. Many schools are leaderless, rudderless and find themselves in dire straights providing education needs in certain subjects, just not being left with any qualified teachers, in particular maths and science which are our real needs.  The Superintendent General I believe said, or it was one of the Deputy Directors stated that:

	Voluntary severance packages option in reducing budget needs is an ill conceived plan.

That comes from the Department itself.  It is quite incredible that we have had to embark on this plan to make ends meet.

I trust the hon Minister of Education will heed the many warnings being given by educators, teacher bodies, parents, the public, the media and the politicians who serve on the Education Portfolio Committee that we have to do something urgently.

Another factor seemingly ignored by many, is the influx of illegal immigrants into South Africa and its dramatic affect on education and health needs in particular.

Guestimates of foreign observers and correspondents who have witnessed the plight of Central Africa in perpetual war and economic ruin, is that between five and nine million illegal immigrants have entered South Africa since negotiations started for a democratic South Africa some five years ago.  Of course we know many came in to buy the vote for a particular party.

We were then one of the most prosperous countries in Africa.  We still are I believe, but we are on a backward slide and this has particularly happened in the last two years.  Not only has this deprived many South Africans of jobs, because of the foreign invasion that has created an ever rising bill for provision of housing, health, security, policing and education, as these foreigners are simulated into the South African economy and community.

Of course they are not welcomed by many communities, especially in informal townships who find the rising level of crime unacceptable, in addition to the rising unemployment with unfair job competition.  The effects on education are not able to be accurately measured, but in Gauteng alone it is estimated that at least R200 million a year is being spent on school subsidies to fund between 80 000 and 100 000 school-going illegal immigrants, at a cost to them of some R2 600,00 per child per annum.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  The position in KwaZulu-Natal, according to reports, could be nearly as bad and may get worse with the totally uncontrolled influx into the Durban Metro area, which the hon Dr Sutcliffe welcomes I am sure.

Dr Buthelezi, Minister of Home Affairs said:

	If we as South Africans are going to compete for scarce resources with millions of aliens who are pouring into South Africa then we can bid farewell to our Reconstruction and Development Programme.

This has been said on more than one occasion.  It seems to me we have already bid farewell, and education, lack of classrooms, adequate water, sanitation and lighting in particular is going to give enormous problems in the future through lack of adequate funding.

It is high time, and I believe the members should listen, the ANC led National Government took control over the flood of refugees and other opportunistic parasites, who along with the crime and drug lords, if not checked will bring our country, education, social services to their knees.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR B V EDWARDS:  An amount of R7,5 million is provided in Programme 8 for the promotion of in-school and out of school sport and recreation.

It is of concern that during the past year the Department is
employing some 45 people with a salary bill of R4 million, an average of nearly R100 000 per person, undertook only three minor promotional projects.  It appears that once some of the staff were in place, there were not funds available to proceed with projects.  I trust that this directorate can now be properly co-ordinated.

It is interesting and I thank them for one thing, they are now a role-player in the promotion of bringing in sporting projects.  We in this next year will be hosting the World Polocrosse Championships here in Pietermaritzburg and the Department has played a major role in that.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is next month.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Ja, next month sorry.  Next month here in June.  We thank the Department for the work they have done there.  That will bring in substantial foreign earnings and I think they can do it with many other sporting activities, where they must play a leading role in assisting those sports events.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Chairman, with that I support the vote before us.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon member Mr J D Mkhwanazi to address the Committee for four minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I do not have much time to say all I want to say.  I want to congratulate the Minister on his hard work, in putting together this budget, with all the problems of leading the biggest Department, and the one that was most divided, when he had to put together five departments.  I also want to congratulate ourselves, the members of the Education Portfolio Committee under the leadership of Mr Burrows.  I want to thank Mr Burrows for the good words he said about me, although I was outside dealing with traditional affairs.

We in the Portfolio Committee on Education, I am proud to say, that we put our political caps aside and we sit together and we deal with the issues.  I think we must be congratulated on that.  I know we do give our Minister a hard time.  We always ask him to come and be with us and his officials I saw them, a host of them were outside here and because of lack of space they are not in here.  I am sure they are listening somewhere.  I think we must say a good word, that they are always with us when we deal with matters of education.  We also do recognise and even those who do not, that education is the most important thing.  In fact the Department of Education is the oven where all the leaders, doctors and all the necessary people, men and women power in this Province are baked and it should be supported.

I am very happy to see on my left and welcome one of the seasoned teachers who has joined this Legislature.  I hope she will be made one of the members of this Portfolio Committee so that we can benefit from her experiences in the struggle and in the Department of Education for our children.

There are two things I did want to say which I want to emphasise.  They have been said before.  The question of security.  I repeat and add that the security of our schools does not belong to the Minister of Education, it belongs to the Minister of Safety and Security.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  There is a cliche which I have always said of marking time, which has been said by our Chairperson Mr Roger Burrows and by Mr Cele, that whatever resources we have we cannot talk about equality, we must give the resources to those people who have always been disadvantaged.

Also we must not expect manna to come from heaven, we must take the system of self-reliance.  If you go to the north of the Tugela and in rural areas most of those schools have been built by the poor parents.  I think those poor parents should continue, and those that are rich should help those poor parents, because nearly all the schools north of the Tugela and in rural areas around there have been built through the contributions made by parents.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call on the hon member Mr Bhamjee to address the Committee for ten minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Chair, firstly, I wish to congratulate the Minister on his budget speech.  I would also wish to express my congratulations to all those persons who have made a significant contribution on education.

However, in the last three budget debates the area most neglected or probably it would be accurate to say, ignored, has been the question of sport and sport development.

Sport takes place in a socio-political context, and is in a sense a socio-political activity.  Other than work and sleep, it is sport and leisure that take up most of the time of the majority of people.

Governments cannot remain aloof from such an important social activity with such far-reaching consequences.  The mere fact that there is usually a Minister of Sport in most Governments serves to make sport a political activity.

The South African case is a special case precisely because the previous Government had concertedly and directly brought politics into sport.  The only in-depth study available on the distribution of sports facilities was conducted by the HSRC in 1982 entitled "Sport in the Republic of South Africa".

Dr L J Templehoff, now manager of the South African Sports Information Centre, confirmed this morning 12 May 1997 that the following statistics extracted from the report are indeed very relevant.  The study exposes gross imbalances, or rather shall I say racial imbalances in the distribution and allocation of sports facilities.  The report then stated that whites enjoy:

-	73% of all athletic tracks.  That is 17 times more per person than blacks
-	92% of all golf courses.  72 times more per person than blacks
-	83,7% of all hockey fields.  35 times more per person than blacks
-	96,2% of all squash courts.  160 times more per person than blacks
-	80% of all badminton courts.  25 times more per person than blacks
-	98,2% of all bowling greens.  29 times more per person than blacks
-	83,5% of all swimming baths.  32 times more per person than blacks
-	26,5% of all soccer fields.  2,3 times more per person than blacks

These figures point out that the situation is much worse than it appears at first glance because of the population imbalance (with the black population outnumbering whites approximately six to one).

Professor G L Scholtz, who headed the study, reported a deterioration in the facilities since 1985.  Remember this was a period when the rebel tours were being heavily financed by the Government.  Dr L J Templehoff of the Human Sciences Research Council confirmed then in 1989 that the situation had not changed essentially since 1982.

Normally, it is in school that interest in sport is kindled and developed.  But according to that very study, white schools have:

-	72,4% of the total number of sports facilities.  16 times more per person than blacks
-	72,9% of athletic tracks.  25 times more per person than blacks
-	88,6% of all cricket pitches.  49 times more per person than blacks
-	87,7% of all rugby fields.  45 times more per person than blacks

It is instructive that the HSRC Sports Investigation established that amongst Africans the greatest participation in sport is the 20/24 years of age group, that is after they leave school.  Amongst whites, of course the greatest participation is at school level.

Dr Templehoff further confirmed this morning that the provision of facilities at most, if there was any change, increased roughly by or he would take an estimated guess roughly between 10% to 15% points.  He further went on to say that this change is essentially not significant enough to make a major impact, so the trend continues.

The opening of facilities to all South Africans in recent years has not made a significant enough impact.  The cost of using these facilities, transport difficulties from the townships and a host of other circumstances mean that blacks do not readily use these facilities.

There are grotesque social inequalities between white and African people.  These inequalities directly preclude Africans from participating in sport just as they encourage whites to participate actively in sport.

Douglas Booth, in his paper Desecrating Sport ~Apartheid~ Style, notes that participation in sport, "Requires firstly exposure to sport, secondly a disposable income large enough to include expenditure on leisure and thirdly, good health in sport cannot be overlooked".

Conditions in the townships clearly undermine the participation of African people in sport.  Access to sports facilities is extremely limited.  Wages are abysmally low and the vast majority do not enjoy good health.

The often repeated slogan, "No normal sport in an abnormal society", should not be dismissed as a rhetorical statement uttered by radicals.  Its relevance is firmly located in the above inequalities and in the conditions in the townships which clearly undermine the participation of African people in sport.

Clearly such dire circumstances, in which people are completely preoccupied with the daily grind of survival, blatantly undermines meaningful possibilities on involvement in sport.

White society, in general, live very sheltered, cloistered lives and are exposed to the most positive aspects of life in South Africa.  They do not witness the harsh reality of poverty and degradation in South African society.

We must realise that the presence and availability of sports facilities would also enhance a community by generating a sense of want, and need to be involved in sport, and thus help to steer our youth away from the vices in society.  They would become an instrument of building a better social environment, and thereby contribute significantly to improve their general quality of life.  This process must be imbued with the intention of decentralising the current academies, which are currently not producing the much promised sportspersons from the historically disadvantaged communities to be selected to represent their respective provinces and the nation.  The ultimate success of the development programmes must be measured in terms of the number of champion black sportspersons produced.  In this we are desperately found wanting.

To take cricket, for example, the current national squad is committed with young talents from KwaZulu-Natal.  None of them are Black.  Since 1986 over 80 000 children were introduced to cricket nationally.  Natal, in particular, in this ten year period, has failed to produce a single cricketer from the historically disadvantaged sectors of our community.  The effect is to introduce thousands of black children into sport only to discard them if they do not show potential for competition, or because logistical constraints prevent transportation to decent facilities.

The hon National Minister of Sport recently remarked:

	There are many youngsters in Model C schools and development programmes, and somehow they fizzle out.  I get the impression that there is no urgency.  I am raising my concerns that black people are not emerging and that African women have become an endangered species in sport.

Constructive and genuine attention should be given to the provision of resources to the facilities in the townships and the rural areas which cater for recreation in sport.  The facility not only to be used as a venue, but rather to function as a mini sports academy staffed with professional coaches and professional administrators, to empower all persons interested in sport with their respective skills, so that those who do not progress to provincial or national level, will be offered the opportunity to become local heroes, who would help contribute to local sports development.  Hence the continuity in talent seeking.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has a minute and a half left.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  The objective must be to foster a partnership with all role-players in the community, and in particular, those interested in sport.  NGOs, sports administrators, Local Government officials, Provincial Parliament to enhance a collective vision which will:

1.	Help promote sporting opportunities in the historically disadvantaged areas and schools.

2.	Establish local sporting academies.

3.	Motivate regions to host local and provincial events.

Serious consideration should be given to ensuring that all schools are equally equipped with sporting opportunities, precisely because schools are the nurseries of sportspersons.

The Department of Education, Sports Desks, the KwaZulu-Natal Sports and Recreation Council, NSC, and the Education Subcommittee on Sport are contemplating on hosting a consultative workshop, and it is hoped that we will address some of the issues here.

Hon Premier, I hope you will note the inbalances, someone will.  Hon Minister of Education and members of the Cabinet, if we wish to produce our provincial sporting heroes from the historically disadvantaged communities to assume their rightful place in representing the Province and the nation, we need to develop an aggressive sports policy on the lines suggested, with immediate effect.  The hon Premier needs to revisit his Special Fund to ensure that funds are made available to enhance sporting opportunities.  Current funds allocated to sport and sports development fall far short, to make any impact to address the imbalances of the past.  I also call on the Premier to mandate his Cabinet to ensure that "full house" sports facilities are integral to all development projects.

Finally, I take this opportunity to remind this House that sport is an important vehicle for securing contact with the international community and establishing South Africa's credibility in the world and community of nations.  Sporting contact is vital to international relations.

The Provincial Government must take the lead in encouraging South African sportspersons, who excel, to take part in events in other countries.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  One second, Mr Chairperson.  By doing well in international events, they obviously act as ambassadors for the country and our Province.  We must do everything in our power to promote black sportspersons to also occupy this status so that the true rainbow nation of our country is positively projected.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member Mrs Mkhize has withdrawn, so I now call on the hon member Mrs J M Downs to address the Committee for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I was not thoroughly prepared to be called right now.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Skip this, Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  No, I am not going to skip.  I have got some important things to say.  I have some sympathy for the Minister, because where the budget cuts hurt the most, I think particularly as in this Department where we have got a situation where we are not going to have one new school built this year.  We have got a real problem.

He has an allocation that is percentage wise a big enough cut of the budget, it is just that the budget itself is not big enough.  I hesitate to say this, but I wonder if the ANC have sinister motives in starving KwaZulu-Natal because this is where it hurts the most.  The National Party certainly did in the past have sinister motives for starving KwaZulu-Natal of funds, and that was to keep the black people down.

AN HON MEMBER:  I can see why you do not want to skip.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I definitely do not want to skip because I am most concerned about this because who is it going to affect, the fact that we are not going to build any new schools in this Province this year?  Who is it going to affect?  It is not going to affect the advantaged communities, it is going to affect the disadvantaged people of this Province, where there are schools with no toilets, no lighting and no facilities and no money to build those.  Is it going to affect the advantaged people?  No, they are not even going to realise that we have got a budget cut.

I see the hon Mr Cele has returned to the chamber, because I want to actually quote something that he said to me a couple of weeks ago.  He actually said that he had a big problem with schools getting funds to fix swimming pools as part of their maintenance programme when other schools do not even have classrooms.  There are people that are still meeting under trees to have school.

Now I actually thoroughly concur with him and I thoroughly agree with him.  This Department, because of the severe budget cuts needs a bold and a visionary programme.  I do not think that it has one.  Within the constraints of the budget it is very difficult to have a bold and visionary programme.

There is one area where I would like to congratulate the Minister and that is in the improvement of the funds that have been made available for special schools.  I have a particular interest there, and to the Minister particular on behalf of Golden Hours School for the Mentally Handicapped, I would like to thank him for the increase that he has put through there.

But we have got a problem.  The next problem that I want to really speak about is adult literacy because as I said this morning in the Agricultural Portfolio Committee, if we can give people shelter, if we can feed them properly and if we can educate them then we actually are on the road to development, but when we have got so many millions of people in this Province who are not literate, where and how are we going to implement a macro plan for economic development?  When people look to invest in an area, when businesses look to invest and overseas investors look to invest in an area they look for an area where there is at least a semi-skilled labour force.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Where a labour force is at least literate.  Now we, apart from our major problems with the education of children, we have got this huge adult population that is not literate.  This programme I feel, while there is some form of programme to help illiterate people is not enough, it is not big enough, it is not far enough and there is not enough money being spent on it.  It is actually to the detriment of this Province because as I said, if we do not have a group of educated people living in this Province we are not going to attract the development that we want to have.  We are not going to be able to produce the jobs that we need to produce.  We are not going to be able to uplift our people.

If I can make a plea adding to everybody else that has made a plea to my colleagues in the ANC, this is where it hurts.  In National Government your party under-funds KwaZulu-Natal.  This is where it hurts and it hurts where there is actually the most need.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MRS J M DOWNS:  So I would really appeal to you to do something.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you hon member.  I now call on the hon member Mr D P Mfayela to address the committee for ten minutes.

MR D P MFAYELA:  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, and your hon House, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on this vote which is the most important vote in all the countries that received independence and those that are still waiting to receive independence.

If a country is not able to carefully guard its education, when it obtains independence that country ends up losing its way, because then the new Government is without the expertise which a new Government so desperately needs.

I want to thank this Parliament of Kwazulu-Natal for when it came to choosing a person who was going to lead this Department it chose the Prince because of his integrity.  Somebody else may well have resigned from this Department, because the Government, that is the Provincial Government of Kwazulu-Natal, is not able to increase its budget, the budget which we have is in fact always decreasing.

The Government which is no longer here, that is the ~apartheid~ Government, also was not able to give us enough money in this Province.  When I look at the budget which we received in the year 1990-1991, at that stage the Minister was Mr Mtshali, that was the budget which we were given by Pretoria, which is now the new Pretoria today, but on that occasion it was still the old Pretoria.

When the old Pretoria budgeted for the children of KwaZulu-Natal
one child would receive an amount in the budget of R545, other population groups were given more money per child, I think that it used to start from R190 something rand and would go up as far as R3739.  This budget was not enough and it was a budget which was based on class.  I think that this Government that is in power today is the Government, who during its campaign to enter into Government used to say that the ~apartheid~ schools should be burnt.  My question is if the schools had all been burnt and finished - well I was not dead.  If these schools had all been burnt and finished, if the Government of KwaZulu had not protected them, this Government that is in power today, what would they be governing?  

It should be remembered that this Government used to promise us that it would build schools, that children would be educated for free, but today we are told that there is no money.  We heard people on the far side saying this country has to pay interest in the sum of R39 billion.

This amount of R39 billion, at the stage of the wedding between the ANC and the National Party, they should have asked each other and said as I am getting into the shoes of this wedding, how much debts do I have?  So that I know whether I am going to manage these debts.  Today we are not paying any attention to that, because we were promised by you gentleman that all you are going to do you are going to do because you knew that there was money
to do it.

Perhaps what happened is that you saw beautiful buildings, tall big buildings, with big windows and then you thought that when you came into Government that there would be hoards of money to be made, and you thought that there would be a lot of money in these buildings, whereas there was none.  

Mageba, this Department of yours that you are in charge of, it was the gentleman in high places himself who was inciting the children at the colleges at KwaMashu and at Umlazi.  This unrest that we have, these threats to burn the schools, he is personally responsible. 
 
Luckily my friends, this Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal, I wish that things could change and that this Parliament could go to Pretoria and govern from Pretoria.  Because it has learnt to be patient, it knows its own needs and it is united, we do not say there is the National Party on one side, there is the ANC on the one side,
there is the ACDP on the one side and there is the PAC on the one side.

I am grateful for the fact that the Government of KwaZulu protected its schools because if it had not protected its schools they would have been burnt and they would have been finished, completely destroyed.  We would be starting from scratch now, we would be conducting classes under trees.  So let us thank the Government of KwaZulu, my friends.  I am not going to be much longer.  

I support the vote of the Minister.  I want to say thank you because the work which you have done is great, thank you Mr Chairman.  T/E 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member, for cutting the time.  I now call on the hon member Mr V C Xaba to address the Ccommittee for ten minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Mr Chairman and the House, I am happy that I speak on this budget vote, particularly after most speakers have contributed significantly to this debate.

Before I go into what I have prepared in my speech, I want to expose some of the myths that were flying from the benches opposite.  The hon member Mr Rehman, said something to the effect that Professor Bengu, the National Minister, has a plan to import Cuban teachers into South Africa.  Where is that plan?  Where and when was that plan drafted?  These are the questions that the hon member would have had to reply to if he was still in the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  He has run away.

MR V C XABA:  Unfortunately, he has run away.  Another thing that the hon member said was that the National Minister of Education is responsible for the cutbacks in the Education Budget.  I am not sure if the hon member has got his facts right because in this financial year, individual Ministers at National level, have nothing to do basically with the allocation of funds to provinces.  Only the National Minister of Finance does and he simply allocates a lump sum.  Then a Province will have to look into how it allocates that lump sum to its various programmes, taking into account the priorities in that Province.

I also want to actually raise my displeasure at the way the members of the IFP bashed what is known as OBE, outcomes based education.  I know why they do so.  It is because they lack information.  They do not know what this scheme is all about and they do not know what the scheme is intended to achieve.  There is one reason for this and that it is because members sitting on the opposite benches do not have even the slightest idea of what was wrong in the education system in the past.  So who is to blame for that situation?  Are we to blame or are they to blame?

Mrs Millin stood up and accused the National Minister of abolishing corporal punishment.  She has forgotten that we did that here in this Province long before the National Minister did it.

AN HON MEMBER:  She does not know that.

MR V C XABA:  Our KwaZulu-Natal School Act which was passed before the National Schools Act abolished corporal punishment and she too voted for that legislation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR V C XABA:  It really annoys me.  Instead of addressing issues, the real issues, key issues in the Province in our education system they begin to lambast the opposition, the perceived enemy or imaginary enemy.  You know, they keep on lambasting it, bashing it, bashing it, bashing it.  When are we going to end that bashing business and begin delivery on the ground?

I must say that the passage of the South African Schools Act has finally laid to rest the debate around categories of schools South Africa inherited from the old order.  The Provincial Government now is obliged to allocate sufficient funds to all public schools to ensure that every learner is provided with basic education.

Building and maintenance of all public schools is now a responsibility of the Department of Education.  Communities in rural areas are now free from having to shoulder this responsibility and further impoverish themselves.  Schools in these areas are poorly resourced, are overcrowded and lack proper facilities.  I am not going to go into details because the hon member Mr Burrows and other members who spoke before me elaborated on that fact.

So it is now upon us to begin to address those problems which other members have identified if we want to bring about a transformed society.  If we do not begin to address the problem of lack of facilities and overcrowding in some of those schools really, we will not have matric results improved in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, no matter how much we bang our heads against the wall.  So we need to make a beginning.

So any uninformed and immoral argument which justified a Rand for Rand scheme is now over.  Communities in rural areas have now to rejoice with all of us.  So the Department must now produce a plan, a plan that will seek to address poor facilities and overcrowding in these areas.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I also want to say something about the question of governance.  The question of governance is a critical factor in the smooth running of our schools.  The South African Schools Act provides for participation of learners in school governance.  I know in many of our more conservative communities, particularly in rural areas, there is likely to be considerable opposition to learner participation in the same structures as others.

The Department must then find a way of dealing with this situation which could include not recognising a governing body that does not have representation of all stakeholders, as the case may be in a particular school.

Again we need to look at capacity building.  If we are serious about involving the public in the governance of their schools, then it will be necessary to set aside funding to ensure that a provincial training programme is worked out to build the knowledge and skills required for such participation.  I have seen in the report by the Minister that there is some move towards that direction.  I am very happy to learn that.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I want to say that we need to move with speed.  If we do not do that then we shall have failed in our duty.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member, for keeping within time.  It now gives me great pleasure to call on the hon Minister Dr V T Zulu to conclude the debate.

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson and thank you very much for the time.  First of all, I want to thank the members for such very constructive inputs.  I first of all must thank the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee for his very, very positive contributions.  First of all, by briefing the House as to what is happening, in addition to what I had said and what was given in the reports and his own in-depth knowledge of what is going on in our Department.

I was also particularly impressed about the manner in which he looked at the budget, the per capita expenditure per child which we also have to look at and use as our support material for requiring further funding.  I want to compare the statement that he made regarding fees in our schools and compare it with the statement that has just been made by the hon member Mr Xaba.  There is a contradiction there.  I want to refer Mr Xaba to the South African Schools Bill where it states that communities will have to contribute, but you seem to be making the statement that communities should not pay anything.

If we said that we would be misleading our people because really they do have to contribute.  I do not foresee a situation or a stage where we will have all the monies that we need.  Where I agree with you in toto is that we really have to start looking at starting with those communities that are most depressed.  The truth of the matter is that there are communities that are unable to pay.  I have been to those areas.  It was pathetic when I went to somewhere along Ngotshe.  These people have tried, they have been building something and they went up with this thing and they just simply stopped at a certain stage.  They just could not, and when you look at the energy that was put into that thing, and it is not going to work.

We will really have to start to look seriously at the question of equity.  A lot has been said about us looking at those schools or communities that have always been disadvantaged and those that are severely disadvantaged.  I agree with you in toto.  That is where we agree with Mr Burrows.

I was only pointing out the differences that when you say we must stop making our people pay, however much we may want to, it is really very difficult, but we need to look at certain communities.  There are communities which just cannot pay and therefore we need to do something about that and it is no tale that there are still students under trees.  We have been to those schools and we know those schools.  Seriously something must be done about that if we are serious about the education of our children.

I also want to note that it is significant that in this House members are now speaking with one voice.  It is very pleasant to note and be in a situation where we are now talking about issues and we seriously address issues irrespective of what political party we belong to.  This is what has been happening and I am highly impressed with that.  There were of course some incidents of pointing fingers here and there, but I think it is still very healthy and it is happening in a very healthy atmosphere.  If you know what was happening in this House.  Even some criticisms from across the floor are now taking place in a very healthy environment.

The fact of the matter is that we are a very big and cumbersome Department, but we cannot always hide behind that, it is the truth.  Therefore it will not always be easy to do some of the things, much as we may want to do them and however much we want to speed up these things.  We are a very big Department and we do have some problems in terms of attaining our fullest capacity.  We do have serious problems with appointments.  We do not believe that the Public Service Commission is doing everything that it can do.

They always give reasons of course and we are trying to talk to them, but we still believe they could have speeded up this thing, it could have been done faster.  Where we are most troubled right now is that they keep on changing the requirements.  We submit according to what they have specified and when you submit they say now the situation is different, we must now submit it in a different fashion.  It is really troubling us.  I am not really saying they are responsible for everything but I believe it could have been faster.

I also acknowledge the fact that communication perhaps is not at its best between the Department and all our structures, including the Portfolio Committee.  Perhaps it will improve.  We have just interviewed the Director of Communications and perhaps if he comes in and deals with this question of communication, the situation will improve and the image of the Department will also improve.  We have also advertised the post of PRO in the Minister's office.  One hopes all that will improve the situation.

I will not say much about the severance packages.  Most people have made comments about the severance packages, they have done us a lot of bad, but we are hoping that there will be some positive aspects as far as the severance packages are concerned.

Somebody made the point that all the teachers that have been given packages must be replaced.  It is not so.  One of the purposes of the severance packages is the question of the right-sizing.  Some of the posts are not going to be replaced, some of the posts are not going to be made use of in the schools where they were.  They are going to be taken to schools where there is a shortage of teachers.  When you hear, for instance, about the situation at Stanger, it is if they are saying nine teachers have been taken from a school it does not mean that all nine of the teachers are going to be replaced.

The Chief Director of the area, that is Empangeni, told me when he did his calculations, which I said he must go and confirm, he found that that school may not need more teachers, that school may be required to reduce even further.  The school is not operating, the leaders there have said the school must stop operating because nine teachers have gone, but the situation is such that we may need to even reduce further in that school.

That school is a very big school.  After the reduction by severance packages 40 teachers still remain, but funny enough they then decide to close the school.  All those things have still to be investigated.  What really are the reasons for them closing the school.  There is a lot to be done about severance packages.  It is not a matter of a certain number of teachers going and then that number of teachers are to be replaced.

AN HON MEMBER:  What about teachers faking sickness?

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  That also needs to be investigated because if it is true and to the extent which it is occurring that would be very disturbing.  It has to be investigated.  How come there are people faking such and people always fake things.  People even fake sickness in order to get pension money.  They do that.  So I would not be surprised if we found this to be the truth, that people are faking sickness and requiring that they be boarded in order to get a lot of money.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):   I always want to comment on what the hon member I C Meer says when he stands up to debate in our session.

We have the benefit of that treasure of historical knowledge and the manner in which he puts it, but the statement that says history demands that we succeed because we know what has happened before us and therefore there is a lot on our shoulders, history demands that we succeed.  That places a lot on our shoulders.  So many people have tried before and some people have even said they would die for liberation.  Now that we are liberated and we do not do something, then history will have something very negative to say about us.

In addition to the statement made by the hon member, there was a statement made by Mr Mfayela, that we must know what to do with our liberation.  We cannot afford now that we have liberation to be playing marbles.  People died for this liberation and when we now have it and we start playing marbles, we need to make people realise that they are liberated.  This is very important even in education, even in terms of other aspects of our governance.  People must realise that some liberation has been attained.

About the National's outcomes based education project.  There is a lot to be said about that.  When you look at the system it is perfect.  No country does not want to have that kind of education, but I like the manner in which the hon member Senzo Mchunu put it.  He talked about scepticism and then about any policy.  You cannot escape some kind of scepticism by people.

Now about this OBE there is a lot, because people fear about the implementation strategy.  They see the system is good but they have this fear about teachers.  The ability of the teachers to effect this and about the ability of the country to pay for this system.  This is a very good and superior system but are we able to afford to pay for this system?  Have we trained the teachers enough?

I think those are genuine scepticisms.  It is genuine for people to look at it and see if it will succeed because without properly trained teachers, it may not succeed without the money, considering the extent to which we are struggling right now.

There was some question about Gamalakhe College.  The hon Mrs Galea said when we replied, we said we did not have plans for the next phase but when she read the report from the Department of Public Works it said there was going to be a next phase.

The original plan of course has different phases.  It is correct for the Department of Public Works to say that there will be that phase, but we direct the Department of Works as to what has to be done and when it has to be done.  But because we look at the funding question, it was correct for us to say that we do not know when the next phase will come in, although it was there in the original plan but because of the question of funding we do not know.  As well as the question of the training of teachers itself, because we are beginning to look at it seriously and saying we do not need to increase the number of teachers trained, particularly in certain fields.

There was also a question of the appointment of the SG.  We are now finalising the appointment of the SG.  People have been interviewed and the panel has sat down and has recommended a name.  That will be submitted to the Public Service Commission and we will hear what they have to say about the recommendation.

A lot has been said about the culture of learning.  I am very impressed when we have a lot of people, especially those that were teachers, especially from the ANC side, pointing at the lack of discipline in the schools.  I have always said, because there were people during the struggle, who were saying things that were destroying discipline in schools, it would be necessary for these people to stand up now and tell the public and tell even the teachers that this is wrong, this is wrong, that is wrong.

I am glad now there are people even in the ANC who are standing up and saying, "We need a culture of learning.  We need discipline in our schools.  Without discipline we cannot go ahead".  If we all say it now it is going to work because if we say it in one party and the other parties are not saying it people and teachers will think it is condoned.

I am very happy that the language is beginning to change, to say security in our schools does not only belong to us.  In fact security in the country belongs to the Security Department but I also accept that as a Department we also have to contribute.  Things like fencing the schools really, that belongs to us but security to communities belongs to the Department of Security.  Why distinguish schools from hospitals, from homes, from other institutions and say the schools must be secured by only the Department of Education.

I am very happy that that message now is being mentioned and two members said that, the hon member Bheki Cele, hon member Mkhwanazi.  In the report that was submitted to us by the Portfolio Committee, it was said we must start negotiating the question of security with the Department of Safety and Security.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  No, we need to talk with the Minister and see what we can do because things are really difficult here.

On the question of corporal punishment and writing exams without attending school, I will bring all those things under the question of discipline in schools and of course I will also refer to the statement I made earlier on, that we need to look at the environment that we bring into our societies through the kind of laws that we make in the country.  So we have to be very careful.  It is true that we were the first ones to pass an Act that forbids corporal punishment.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  It was because of the Constitution.  I could not argue against banning corporal punishment because if that was taken to the Constitutional Court or any court, if we have to look at those things the Constitution favours such a position, but it is not a position that is favoured by the people on the ground.  You see, that is the point.  We have gone to some schools for instance, we have asked the children, and they have said to us they want corporal punishment because schools are not functioning any more.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  We have gone to schools and children in secondary schools are saying, "We are not taught any more.  Teachers do not want to do anything with us any more", because there are some cliques of students in schools who threaten teachers, who do anything and they cannot be punished.  So there is a real difficulty about this non-punishment of children in schools.

I was very impressed with the presentation by the hon member Mr Bhamjee on sports because very few people said anything on sports.  I must say that is one area where we have had very serious problems.  We have had a lot of fights trying to rationalise sports.  People have been fighting on political lines, on old territories not wanting to give way to their territories and it has been very, very serious.

We are beginning to find our way.  People are beginning to give in and we will soon be looking at rationalisation of all those inequalities where we have most of the facilities belonging to the whites.

I think where there is a proper approach and proper talking, people go in there and share.  There is of course a lot of resistance but it has to be destroyed one way or the other.

Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on everything that our members said but on the whole I want to thank the members.  I may not have referred to names in particular cases but I seriously thank all members that have made these contribution.  I thank you very much for giving me a nice day.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

MR V C XABA:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.  The hon Minister has not said anything about international mediation.  Could you give him some more time to say something about that.  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon members, if I may just deal with the conclusion of this debate.

DR V T ZULU:  (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Chairman, the only thing I can say here which I missed to say, I did thank the Portfolio Committee.  I wanted also to thank my officials in the Department for the good work that they have done.  I want to sincerely thank members of our staff.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon Minister.  At the conclusion of the debate it now leaves me as the Chairman to, in the formal atmosphere, to report progress and ask leave of the Speaker to sit again, but as the Speaker is not here and we are in a less formal situation in this House, I would merely ask the hon Premier whether he has any announcements or any information to give to the members before we close.

THE PREMIER:  Not particularly, Mr Chairman, other than to thank the members, as the Minister says, the spirit now is much better.  There is a lot of progress in multi-party co-operation in this House.  This really gladdens me because we may differ as political parties but for the good of this Province we must have a common purpose.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Premier.  I now adjourn the Committee until tomorrow morning when the House will resume at 9:00am.  Thank you.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:18 UNTIL
	9:00 ON TUESDAY, 13 MAY 1997


